-
I am confused about using the melodic minor scale over 2-5-1 progressions.
My teacher told me that if we are in C maj for example I should play an Ab harmonic minor scale over the V (G).
That sounds weird to my ears.
Do you have maybe any licks derived from that scale that works? Or what is the theory behind this?
-
02-16-2013 11:15 AM
-
Ab Melodic Minor contains:
G B F ----- Ab Bb Db Eb
1 3 b7 ----b9 #9 b5 b13
3 important G7 functional notes + all 4 altered tones
Altered note neighbor tone resolutions G7alt to C
Ab to G or A
Bb to A or B
Db to C or D
Eb to D or E
They are just a crunchier chromatic variation on the notes of G Mixolydian
G B F ----- A C D E
1 3 b7 ---- 9 11 5 13Last edited by bako; 02-16-2013 at 05:31 PM.
-
Yes it should sound weird to your ears. It's the type of sound most jazz players like to use though, so just get used to it. Also, make sure that the chord being comped underneath only contains some combination of the notes Bako explained are in that scale. So for example you don't want the normal 5th in the chord, the b5 or #5 (b13) are in the scale so they won't sound good over a chord voiced with the normal 5th.
The 7th mode of the melodic minor is often referred to as the "altered scale" because it contains every possible alteration for a dominant chord. There are other options for playing over altered dominants as well, depending on the situation and your personal taste, but for now just focus on the scale your teacher told you to.
-
But you asked about an Ab HARMONIC minor. The melodic minor works better and is the accepted one in this context, but the harmonic minor works. It just doesn't have that all important flat 7. Instead it's the 6/13.
-
The comp doesn't have to play altered notes for you to use the altered scale. I don't know why people insist on this. The gist of the altered scale is the contrast and tension. If that is perfectly reflected in the accompaniment, there will not be much contrast anymore. Of course, that is perfectly valid but if you want to create tension, it's the contrast that makes it.
If the comp plays a fully altered chord, the greatest contrast is to play unaltered lines. It's the relationship of the notes working together that makes the effect, not the theoretical constructs.
The altered scale sounds excellent over an unaltered dominant with intervals 1,3,5,7.
Integrity in the line itself is what makes it tick, which is achieved with good time, rhythm and resolution.
Furthermore, you don't have control of what voicings and color tones the accompanist uses, unless he's one of those guys who reads the chord right off the chart and uses the same chord for each chorus. A good accompanist decides on the chord tones and voicing depending on the voicing he just played prior to that, because he'll want to ensure nice voice leading.
The reason why many people struggle with the altered scale is that they try to run before they can walk. This is why there are threads like these. You have to be able to resolve your lines well. Learn bebop resolutions. Chromatic embellisments of the chord tones of the I-chord, and the cliche resolutions using the b9 and #9 of the dominant chords(try Bb,Ab,G,F,E to resolve from G7 to Cmaj7 for example. Very obvious and easy to hear).
I suspect the teacher in question threw his student right into the CST approach, having him learn all the sounds at once. You got to have a good platform of resolution phrases before you go on to the altered scale, or you'll just become frustrated.
It's a good idea to split up the altered scale like that. Work on b9 and #9 together, then b5 and #5 and learn to hear how they want to resolve to the I-maj7. These should be the only foreign notes to your ear because the rest of the altered scale is 1,3 and 7 of the dominant chord.
Some may not like the directness of my post and that's fine. But consider this coming from someone why tried to learn all the scales at once and failed. Couldn't play through a tune. Then I worked thoroughly from the beginning in a logical progression and things started to make sense. Just my personal advice and observations.
-
I think it's because folks are often thinking of their theory vertically, not horizontally.
Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
There is a difference between the qualities of harmony in real time vs the effect of a single chord with a single note sustained on top of the chord. A lot of discussions of dissonance reference the single chord/single note idea without respect to the reality that with everything going on at once, what is interpreted as dissonant or consonant is a lot more flexible.
-
Here are some general guidelines for typical jazz usage...
I'm using vertical references because there the easiest method to spell complete note collections, I'll get into the BS after... I understand and can break down almost any explanation...
So your reference or starting point is... a II V I in Cmaj.
There are a million ways to approach. But if you make the tonal reference C.
And thinking in just harmonic areas. You make a choice as to how you want the harmonic rhythm...or the harmonic accent pattern... to work or feel.
D-7 Dorian goes to any version of a G7 or sub. ...resolves to any version of "C"
D-7 Aeolian usually implies from Fmaj and many more guidelines come into play, much more pop, classical, older pop jazz. Still can basically go to any version of G7 or sub, but you need to pay attention to the harmonic concept being implied by the changes or melody. ( how you use comes into play)
D-7 from phrygian implies Bbmaj, has a bVII feel, very blusy... D-7b9 to G7#9 to Cmaj7, (very easy to use as access to MM). can open door to susb9 chords, another jazz harmonic concept.
D-7b5 Locrian implies Ebmaj, (bIII) or C-... very standard pop, rock...classical jazz harmonic relative Minor relationship. When used as it's own target tonal area and then new tonal reference for the G7, more MM related... becomes more in jazz style. So is somewhat in the style of using Dorian... can go to any G7 which opens the door for any version of "C"
This same process continues with D-7's from Melodic Min, Harmonic Min and Maj. But generally with MM in a jazz context of use.... pulling from MM opens the door to any other harmonic reference from any scale degree from referenced MM scale.
Example... you pull from D-maj7 from D mel. min. for your II- chord.... You have access to any harmonic concept or organized method of usage derived from any of the chordal structures built on any degree of that D melodic Min scale
I have access to different standard chord patterns derived from standard use of MM. and to the possible relationships that can be created from those chord patterns.
Harmonic min. Has more traditions usage related to typical Maj/Min functional harmony.
These concepts are the same with respect to melodic, (horizontal) and harmonic,(vertical) usage, just different references and application.
The next collection of BS is some basic info. for understanding and how to use the above info.
The basic II V I chord pattern naturally creates tonal patterns. We label these sounds to imply those tonal patterns... our II V I is generally a subdominant to Dominant to tonic pattern. Our thinking or hearing... in general terms.
These tonal patterns create movement or they don't, the movement can be forward, backwards or at rest.
We generally call the reason for this movement or non movement... function, function is force behind where the chords wants to go. (This concept also works or functions melodically).
Generally in respect to jazz harmony... our labeling represents relationships created by certain pitches within chord progressions. The characteristic pitch of Major is the 4th degree. What we label as tonic are generally chords without the chord tones containing that unstable 4th. In key of C... the F. The subdominant chords contain that 4th degree as chord tone, with out the 7th degree which creates the tritone which defines the Dominant label, chords which contain the 4th degree as a component of the diatonic tritone... In key of C... F and B
In jazz harmony the basic chord reference is the 7th chord(s), which somewhat reflects why we use all large case Roman numerals for analysis, as compared to traditional triadic analysis symbols.
Moving on.. so with II V I's ...we end up with this common harmonic pattern, Strong - weak - strong. This pattern can change...by how you decide to make the function of the implied harmonic pattern work...
So we play the plug and play game. We substitute different chords... we begin to create relationships from that beginning reference, The D-7 G7 Cmaj7. That beginning reference of D-7 with D dorian complete note collection to G7, mixo. complete note collection to Cma7, Ionian complete note collection.
All the notes are all from Cmaj. But when you start on each degree of that Cmaj scale... and then imply that scale degree with reference to the new root or micro target tonal center... your creating a different organization of function or where the notes want to move, not voice leading, function The harmonic power that creates movement from reaction to relationships. Voice leading is just a method of directing how the notes move.
So back to the plug and play game... what your really only looking for.
What makes different choices of each chord work... is the harmonic organization of how your creating relationships, (using different chords). There are harmonic concepts, guidelines that control how and why different chords work,(function), together.
Generally the Harmonic concept is derived from usage or the usage is versions of harmonic concept... but that takes too much time understand....so we basically from jazz common practice... have standard chord patterns, which represent what we as jazz players like. These chord patterns represent common usage of the plug and play game, Chord Substitution. These common chord patterns cover the harmonic concept, the different Harmonic and tonal systems used as references and generally cover the Harmonic Rhythm accent pattern details within Form... Like I said Plug and play.
To be able to take the next step... you need to understand why the plug and play game works, Years.
But you can memorize common chord patterns and how their used in jazz tune, develop a collection of Plug and Play chord patterns... and use those for creating relationships. I use the same system for soloing melodically. When I develop or embellish a melodic phrase, I have harmonic references which organize my how I go through that process.
For example... I like Dorian to altered with use of II V's. as my base reference. I start with D dorian to Ab melodic Min to Cmaj. That is my starting reference... there are millions of harmonic concepts and their applications for creating relationship from that starting point.
Ex. being I can use function subs... Pull from F lydian in relationship to D dorian.
I could then use E min pentatonic note collection, add the F... have a different method of organize how I'm using the notes from D dorian... then go through the same process with The G7 altered. Use Melodic Min function sub of G7alt... Db7#11 then use a pentatonic relationship with that note organization and in the end resolve back to C.
I could also use a note(s) as a pedal type of organization to create a different type of harmonic function to create guidelines for a modal style of function, again function being the how relationships between notes react. This can have many level of organization... yada yada, I'm sure it's beyond boring by now.
-
A billion thanks to ALL of You pro guys that You explained this here to me, You words, thoughts helped me a lot. Yes, 1st I have to check the b9 and #9 then b5 and #5, and some bebop before I arrive to the melodic minor as an altered scale over a dominant chord.
I have to slow down. My main problem is that I just cant play modern solos, just arpeggio, and modal scales-like things with some "guest" notes which are good in the old school jazz tunes, but absolutely cant play the modern (I was trying some Scott Henderson licks, but I recognized those are preferred in a bluesy environment). Maybe that kind of frustrating leaded me to this kinda frustrating...
-
I didn`t read the whole thread and don`t know if it was mentioned:
Check out Don Mock "Melodic Minor revealed"!!! It will bring you to the Sound of melodic minor.
Every aspect and usage is inside and beside that everything taught in a simple and logical way!
For the few Bucks it costs, it`s a steal...
-
Hey mrBlues... to start... use Altered and Lydian b7. There the same collection of notes a tritone apart. You can mechanically approach almost anything with an Altered dom7th chord for the V and mixing in... create relationships with the tritone sub of that altered V chord... the bII7 chord with lydian b7.
So your target is Cmaj or any version of a C chord. You would harmonically pull from... G7 altered and Db7 lydian b7.
Both from Ab mel. min. The II- chord would be somewhat straight... usually Dorian.
So D-7 (dorian) / G7alt and Db7#11(lyd b7) / Cmaj or min, any version of.
The reason it works... you generally use the note collection, (Abmm), that's further away from the tonal target, (C),
on the weak harmonic rhythm of what ever your playing.
The harmonic rhythm would be... Strong... weak... Strong.
This is very basic and once you establish this practice... as with most things, you take a few more steps.
Reg
-
Mr Blues, this is a very interesting question and the thread seems to have covered the topic pretty thoroughly, and your response in post11 sums it up well imho.
My favourite explanation of this is Jimmy Bruno's: that these outside notes arise 'naturally' in a 2-5-1 with tritone subs and altered chords - Jimmy seems to imply that there isn't really such a thing as a jazz melodic minor scale as such, and I personally like that approach, and it fits the music I like to try to play.
Other players, whose playing I also admire a lot, for example Emily Remler and Larry Coryell, think of it very much as a scale (their explanations are on youtube). The reason I don't like that approach so much is that it is often used as a quick fix to create a jazzy outside sound; though it probably is a useful approach for someone who wants to move their style in a modal direction.
-
A good accompanist and listener (it takes being a great listener to be a good accompanist) will pick up what notes you're using. I always try to pay attention to altered notes. If I hear something I'll instantly change my voicing to at least a #5 or something. It's all about listening.
-
Berklee Modern Guitar Method 3 has a great explanation of this topic. Or you can check out this article on the same ideas:
How to Use the Melodic Minor Scale
-
Hey Jtizzle...
Yes listening is very important... but that's where it gets complicated. I apologize for using you as an example... but your example is exactly what I'm talking about. When you say you hear a #5...what is that in reference to.
I'm guessing your implying b13 which has many references and typical jazz common practice applications. What the source or reference of that b13 is in relationship to, both harmonically and melodically depending on reference. #5 has a very different implication. Voicings don't always imply harmonic content. Harmonic implications from use of chordal progressions, common practice chord patterns... which are basically heard as one chord, do imply harmonic and melodic intent.
Voicings and melodic content don't need to always line up... very common jazz practice, (as well as traditions), having conflicts or mixing of tonal areas. Two different harmonic or melodic references being used simultaneously... they tend to work better... when there are organizational methods of combining, more common references.
In relationship to this thread... use of melodic minor.
Jdaguitarz... thanks for info... when I read the article from jazz advice... was just application of using chords built from MM...scale degrees, no concept of application, more of try it... if it works it's good. Never starts, develops or ends up anywhere.
Yea Berklees book iii is just technical application... general practice with out explanation. Unless the newer issue has more. All good... but teaching you too use material with out understanding what your using...standard practice.
(I'm a Berklee grad from many moons ago... still dig school)
It's all cool... I just tend to try and explain more conceptual understanding as compared to basic applications.
I'll try and make a vid of applications with reference to concepts of use of MM.
Reg
-
The diagrams showing how each note resolves is great. I often hear the resolution from the b9 of the V7alt chord going to the 5 of the I or i chord.
Mrblues asked for some licks to get the sound in his ears
this is the first V7alt - I lick I learned and one I see all kinds of players of all instruments use, Parker, Evans, Clifford, Miles, even Reg!
(that G7 sign is a little off!)
-
Originally Posted by euterpe
The diagrams showing how each note resolves is great. I often hear the resolution from the b9 of the V7alt chord going to the 5 of the I or i chord.
Mrblues asked for some licks to get the sound in his ears
this is the first V7alt - I lick I learned and one I see all kinds of players of all instruments use, Parker, Evans, Clifford, Miles, even Reg!
-
^^^ Yeah, I like the Eb inner voice dropping to D in the C6/9.
-
OK... sure that's great example... but typically when playing one tune... your going to play that chord pattern...? 40 or 50 times at least. So what I tend to do is create relationships between each time I play through that chord pattern... I would hope... our ears already hear almost any of the very mechanically derived possibilities... depending on what organizational method, concept, application one chooses to use.(of which voice leading is just one tool of expressing ... and a fairly boring one at that... what's the goal?)
You eventually can hear what you want to play... so you make decisions as to what you want to be the focus... if you get caught up in the voice leading game... as your method of organizing what you want to play... good luck being heard and involved in the interaction. My point... the simplest.. basic resolutions are happening whether you play them or not.
OK... sure go through the very mechanical choices and learn and understand what they are, more importantly... why they work and in relation to what. You'll then understand the reference and where different relationships can go.
OK... that could take a couple of hours... or a life time, depending on how you approach. But you can mechanically express all the possibilities fairly simple.... any type of notation, even with the general rules of thumb...
Now you get to where you begin to use those mechanical voice leading tools. There not harmonic organization... their a simple a tool to see and hear the choices, which can become reflective of a harmonic or melodic organization.
Is that what the thread should get into... the mechanical choices and what they represent. Pretty boring, but I'll help if that where we want to go... I would think there are many others who can contribute.
I'll go in any direction..."MM voice leading possibilities and what they imply and can imply depending on the context of application"...
-
Originally Posted by mrblues
What he's talking about (and whether or not you should use it is another question, and the answer is: it depends...) is the 7th mode of melodic minor. Known as (at least two things), the super locrian mode--like a locrian scale (which compared to major has b2, b3, b5, b6 and b7) with an additional flatted forth degree.
The flatted forth sounds like a major third.
So: this gives you a scale for a G7 chord that contains:
1, b9, #9, 3, b5, b13 and b7, and is often called: the altered scale.
Like a major scale, with everything except 1 lowered.
-
Great points Reg! Those mechanical choices are great starting points in a solo. I was running through some Charlie Parker transcribed solos and I noticed that some of his choices to play over the VI chord were tritone subs bIII7. In the key of of C, he'd play Eb7 (over A7). I'd imagine everyone knows that, but I didn't realize that it's possible to play a partial Bbm MM lines over Eb7. I really like that sound. Then for the II chord, not being a great fan of II Dorian, I subbed with Abmaj7 arp. A C minor pentatonic run or even Cm MM lines would work there as well. I liked that even better. Then off to the G7 with the expected Locrian scale or Abm MM which at some point I really would like to make more interesting. It wasn't hard to create relationships with that approach. Originally Posted by Reg
This is still kind of vertical type of thinking, but it opens up some melodic possibilities without the need be careful to step on each change.
You're referring to these type relationships or you meant relationships in the realm of Abm MM only?
-
This is why it sounds good: Originally Posted by digeorge
Bb Melodic Minor over Eb7 is the same notes as Eb Lydian Dominant, which is the 4th Mode of the Bb Melodic Minor scale.
Bb Melodic Minor = Bb C Db Eb F G A
Eb Lydian Dominant = Eb F G A Bb C Db
IMHO, I think knowing all of the Melodic minor modes really helps.
Guy
-
I hear and see these type of mechanical relationships as "Plug and play". If your creative with your relationships and have the skills... almost any MM source is possible. So Yes.
I tend to try and have as many as possible.... "common connections" between different "Plug and Play" options.
Whether your using Subs as source for MM and then modal interchanging between those subs... or using Blue note harmonies as source for MM and again subbing or modal interchanging,(plug and playing), between the two and usually an organizational control.
The plug and play options and organizational aspects become internalized... I don't really go through the processes. I hear them.
As Guy said... knowing all the degrees or we as guitar players say... the modes of MM... isn't like you should... it's part of our basic language. Most jazz players use MM in both... typical functional approach and also in a Modal style of use... non-functional harmonically... no avoid notes or chords... it's one function, all the chords. All chords are subs for each other. Obviously other melodic and harmonic aspects have influence on the application.
Reg
-
Originally Posted by sunnysideup
Right on. I remember that Jimmy Bruno quote, it really stuck with me. He was talking about a 2 chord, Dm7 and said he just sometimes plays the natural 7 over the 2 (Dorian). It's a good approach. A good example is in his solo "There is No Greater Love" on the B sections it's mostly G minor + it's 2/5. He uses the b7 and maj7, F/F# freely and plays some really nice Joe Pass type lines. It's like putting some G-/maj7 lines in.
I like the other approach as well for Dom 7 chords. I find it helpful to practice Lydian b7 and Alt Dom all over the neck as separate scales without having to think of the parent melodic minor. Same with Locrian natural 9 but that one is a work in progress.
Bruno also said he's looks at all type of Dom7 chords (G7b5, G7#5b9, etc..) as just G7 and plays whatever tensions he wants.
-
I haven't played for a very long time (fifteen years) and I was never comfortable with my melodic minor scales. So, now I want to start practicing melodic minor scales against something basic like a 2 5 1. I was never very good at changing keys either so I was hoping you people could give me some suggestions as to what scales and what key changes I could use against a 2 5 1 that would get me more comfortable with changing keys and using some melodic minor. Please keep in mind that I have not played seriously in years so what little theory I had known I have probably now forgotten. Any help is sincerely appreciated.
-
Make the ii V I a: iim7b5 - V7alt - Imaj7
In C that's: Dm7b5 - G7#5 - Cmaj7
Dm7b5 use F melodic minor (also known as D locrian #2 scale)
G7#5 us Ab melodic minor (also known as G altered scale)
Resolve into Cmaj7 (just use a C major scale or arp
For example: All eighth notes starting on the 1st beat of the Dm7b5, 8 notes of F melodic minor, then G7 alt, 8 notes of Ab melodic minor, resolving to the 9th of Cmaj7.
-----------------------------------------------
---------------------------------4-------------
-7-----------------------3-4-6---6-4-7-----
---6-5----5-6-5----5-6----------------------
--------8---------8---------------------------
-----------------------------------------------Last edited by fep; 04-14-2014 at 09:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
There will be another you changes
Today, 02:06 AM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions