Using the Melodic Minor Scale over 2 5 1 Progressions

[keith]

Correct me if I have this wrong but wouldn't this be D-7/ G7/ Cmaj7

When I see the m7b5 as the ii and the alt dominant, I think of being in a minor modality so the I chord is a minor so D-7b5/ G7alt/C-7

[SkinnyGrey]

Why would I use Ab against a G7? Will that not sound weird?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Why would I use Ab against a G7? Will that not sound weird?

The b9 adds tension to a dominant chord, which can be a good thing. Compare:

G7: 3x300x
G9: 3x320x
G7b9: 3x310x

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Correct me if I have this wrong but wouldn't this be D-7/ G7/ Cmaj7

When I see the m7b5 as the ii and the alt dominant, I think of being in a minor modality so the I chord is a minor so D-7b5/ G7alt/C-7

I think that originally Dm7b5 Galt resolved to a Cminor chord, but over time, people liked the sound of the altered chord and started using it in major progressions as well and the m7b5 followed along for the ride.

[fep]

Why would I use Ab against a G7? Will that not sound weird?

+1 to what BigDaddy said.

The G7 functioning as a dominant chord can be thought of as a point of tension. The altered notes added to a G7 increase the tension. The G altered scale has all the tension notes in it, and is a very basic ingredient of the 'jazz' sound.

Melodic minor isn't used that often in jazz but the modes of the melodic minor are used quite often in jazz. The most common is the 7th mode of the melodic minor which is the altered scale. So a quick way to figure the scale is it's the same as the melodic minor 1/2 step above the root of the dominant chord. Example: G7, the G altered scale has the same notes as the Ab melodic minor scale (Ab being 1/2 step up from the root of G). It's better to think of it as a G altered scale than as a Ab melodic minor as that puts you in tune with the G7 as your point of reference. And most jazz musicians would refer to it as G altered not Ab melodic minor.

And did I mention, the altered scale is a very basic ingredient of the 'jazz' sound?

[SkinnyGrey]

Very interesting and informative. So, when playing against a 7th chord, can I always use the altered scale (half a step up in melodic minor)?

[ColinO]

^^^ yes.

One thing that I find interesting is how close the Altered scale is to the milolydian scale of the related tritone. For example if the chord is B7, you can play B Altered scale (B C D Eb F G A) or the F mixolydian (Bb C D Eb F G A). You might want to avoid the Bb but otherwise, the notes are the same.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

^^^ yes.

One thing that I find interesting is how close the Altered scale is to the milolydian scale of the related tritone. For example if the chord is B7, you can play B Altered scale (B C D Eb F G A) or the F mixolydian (Bb C D Eb F G A). You might want to avoid the Bb but otherwise, the notes are the same.

If you push that one step more:

F Mixolydian: F G A Bb C D Eb
F Mixolydian #11 (F lydian dominant): F G A B C D Eb

F Lydian dominant corresponds to a F7#11 chord, but can be played over a straight F7, too.

[SkinnyGrey]

There is no Ab in G Maj7, that see. Why does the Altered scale work with G Mag7?

Furthermore, could I then play a Db Melodic Minor against the C Maj7 in this 2 5 1?


I apologize in advance for my litany of questions that will probably follow. I have a tragic disposition, curious and eager to learn while also being slow minded.

[GuyBoden]

I haven't played for a very long time (fifteen years) and I was never comfortable with my melodic minor scales. So, now I want to start practicing melodic minor scales against something basic like a 2 5 1. I was never very good at changing keys either so I was hoping you people could give me some suggestions as to what scales and what key changes I could use against a 2 5 1 that would get me more comfortable with changing keys and using some melodic minor. Please keep in mind that I have not played seriously in years so what little theory I had known I have probably now forgotten. Any help is sincerely appreciated.

If you're just getting back into playing, don't practice Melolodic Minor concentrate on practicing Major scales and see if you can complete the following exercise instinctively.

These exercises are not as easy as they seem.

Can you play melodies just using the 3rd of each chord throughout a Jazz standard?

Can you play melodies just using the 5th of each chord throughout a Jazz standard?

Can you play melodies just using the 7th of each chord throughout a Jazz standard?

Can you play melodies just using the 3rd and 7th of each chord throughout a Jazz standard?

Can you play melodies just using the 3rd, 5th and 7th of each chord throughout a Jazz standard?

Can you play melodies just using the 3rd, 5th and 7th of each chord with chromatic links throughout a Jazz standard?

Leave the Melodic minor until you can play Major scales and chord tones instinctively.

[GuyBoden]

There is no Ab in G Maj7, that see. Why does the Altered scale work with G Mag7?

Furthermore, could I then play a Db Melodic Minor against the C Maj7 in this 2 5 1?


I apologize in advance for my litany of questions that will probably follow. I have a tragic disposition, curious and eager to learn while also being slow minded.

If I was your teacher, I'd feel that learning the Melodic Minor and it's modes will only confuse you at this stage in your playing.

[fep]

Very interesting and informative. So, when playing against a 7th chord, can I always use the altered scale (half a step up in melodic minor)?

Your ear needs to be the final arbiter on that. There are places where I wouldn't use the altered scale. To my ear the altered scale creates tension, it sounds like it's going somewhere else which is the resolution. In a blues for example, I don't really hear the altered scale working over the I7 chord until right before the IV7 chord. I haven't used the altered scale over the IV7 either.

BigDaddy mentioned the lydian dominant scale, that's another mode of the melodic minor. A general rule is you can use that over a dominant 7 chord that doesn't resolve down a 5th to the next chord.

E7 to A7, resolves down a 5th you could use the altered scale.

Bb7 to A7, doesn't resolve down a 5th, you could use the Lydian Dominant scale.

Here's an example by Larry Carlton. He's using the altered scale at
:21 to :24
:37 to :38
:45 to :46
:59 to 1:00
1:05 to 1:07

And the diminished scale at 1:09 to 1:10

[fep]

And... not answering the question asked.

Gmaj7 is not the same as G7.

Gmaj7 = G B D F#

G7 = G B D F

The G altered scale often works over G7 but it doesn't work for Gmaj7.

[Vladan]

To add something of worth, you can see it as adding some notes to "your" usuall pentatonic or major scale, or rock'n'roll one, this playing a step above, I mean, without that illogical fuss of actually thinking "step above".

Playing dmin G7 CMaj, obviously, you are in C major. On G you are inevitably in mode (of C major) by he name of mixolydian.

Now, you start playing all missing half steps (of 12 note chromatic) as passing notes, except btw b7 and 8/1 (that would be F#/Gb),
and there, you are utilizing G#/Ab melodic minor as pool of notes.
Now try to take out the usuals, 2, 4, 5 and 6 (those are A, C and D and E), one of them, some of them, all of them, none of them and try to live with the result. After a while it should grow on you as it did on Lary Carlton.

Something like that.

[GuyBoden]

Using melodic minor mode on minor ii v i is not for the "Getting Started" section of this forum. It's easier for beginners to play minor ii v i progressions using chord tones and embellishments or just embellishing the Song's melody.

IMHO, getting into Melodic Minor modes at too early a stage in the Jazz Guitar journey could be disastrous.

[coolvinny]

I haven't played for a very long time (fifteen years) and I was never comfortable with my melodic minor scales. So, now I want to start practicing melodic minor scales against something basic like a 2 5 1. I was never very good at changing keys either so I was hoping you people could give me some suggestions as to what scales and what key changes I could use against a 2 5 1 that would get me more comfortable with changing keys and using some melodic minor. Please keep in mind that I have not played seriously in years so what little theory I had known I have probably now forgotten. Any help is sincerely appreciated.

To be honest, I think MM is probably over your head for the time being and you'd get more out of just learning a bunch of tunes to the point where you can jam them with other people, you can transpose things to different keys, etc. Then come back to MM.

So, yeah, I totally agree with GuyBoden here.

[SkinnyGrey]

Guy Boden, I got it, you don't want me to use melodic minor

[mr. beaumont]

Ad parrotum.

Tough stuff to teach in an Internet post. And yes, not beginner stuff...but we can't really assess where the op is without hearing him...

OP, play this progression:

Dm9: X 5 3 5 5 5
G7b9b13: 3X3444
C6/9: X32233

Bigger chords than maybe you'd play in a real life situation, but...

now, let's look at Ab melodic minor:

Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, F, G.

See how that has the root, seventh, third (enharmonic, Cb=B) and that b13 (Eb) and b9 (Ab) of the G7 chord? That's that altered scale and that's why it works. Just play around with that application for a while.

hint: don't run it like a scale, step by step. Actually, when improvising, rarely play scales like that. Insert some leaps into your playing...just try Ab G Eb B as your four notes over the G7 at first.

This will hopefully get the sound in your ears.

[SkinnyGrey]

So I really hope this doesn't start another argument, but I was wondering if it works to solo with C major over the Dm7 and the Cmaj7 and just use the melodic minor (in Ab) over the G7. Also, are there other modes for the C major that you guys would suggest. Many thanks and please be civil.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

So I really hope this doesn't start another argument, but I was wondering if it works to solo with C major over the Dm7 and the Cmaj7 and just use the melodic minor (in Ab) over the G7. Also, are there other modes for the C major that you guys would suggest. Many thanks and please be civil.

C major/D Dorian over Dm7 - sure. The way it will likely sound is that you are major (or neutral) sounding over Dm7, then getting darker, more tension, over G7, and finally resolution over CMaj7.

Idea: not a scale but chromaticism: enclosure

[Klatu]

Which minor chords could I play in minor ii - V situations that would use the same melodic minor scale as that used over the altered V? Is it possible to resolve to a Maj7+5?

[bako]

C Major - Dm7 G7 Cma7

C Harmonic Minor - Dm7b5 G7 CmMa7

C Harmonic Major - Dm7b5 G7 Cmaj7

C Melodic Minor - Dm7 G7 CmMa7

In each case, these chords occur on degrees II, V and I. Each successive chord is a 4th away from the previous one.
D > G and G > C.

In the scenario that you propose you are using the harmonic structure from the 7th degree of the melodic minor.
C melodic minor yields B7al7. The minor II chord would contain the root F#. This does not exist in a C melodic minor.

Building a sequence in 4ths from C melodic minor using B7alt yield the following:

F7#11 B7alt Ebma7+

This is a nice sequence in and of itself but different than a typical II V I that is structure as 3 successive perfect 4ths.

[christianm77]

C Major - Dm7 G7 Cma7

C Harmonic Minor - Dm7b5 G7 CmMa7

C Harmonic Major - Dm7b5 G7 Cmaj7

C Melodic Minor - Dm7 G7 CmMa7

In each case, these chords occur on degrees II, V and I. Each successive chord is a 4th away from the previous one.
D > G and G > C.

In the scenario that you propose you are using the harmonic structure from the 7th degree of the melodic minor.
C melodic minor yields B7al7. The minor II chord would contain the root F#. This does not exist in a C melodic minor.

Building a sequence in 4ths from C melodic minor using B7alt yield the following:

F7#11 B7alt Ebma7+

This is a nice sequence in and of itself but different than a typical II V I that is structure as 3 successive perfect 4ths.

This is a little simplistic actual lines tend to combine these possibilities.....

I tend to think of the ii V as being one scale and the I as being another

More flexible - so for instance you often get a Dm7b5 G7 resolving to Cm6 for instance

The most common bebop sound combines three closely related scales
Dm7b5 - Bb mix/C natural minor
G7b9 - C harmonic minor
Cm6 - C Dorian/c melodic minor

In fact we could dispense with the whole chord scale relationship and effectively talk about minor melodies. Most minor key things will work provided they are good melodies that resolve strongly.

But it’s quite common to have a Dorian sound on Dm and even a mixolydian sound on G7 before resolving to Cm, strange though that might seem.

The G alt/Ab melodic minor sound is common on G7 in post bop.

The D locrian #2/F Mel min is a textbook choice on Dm7b5 - has a Bill Evans vibe.

This type of thinking tends to remove the need for a harmonic major scale, but it can be fun to play with.

Furthermore there are the Barry Harris scales which effectively combine some of these possibilities.

Bet you are sorry you asked!

Best way - use your ears and check out your favourite players. They are probably better at music than I am.

[christianm77]

Very important - the most important thing is what you do on the ii v. The I is not so interesting - it can be suggested with just a note or two.

[bako]

This is a little simplistic actual lines tend to combine these possibilities.....

Yes it is, but the question was asked about drawing chords from a singular scale.
My post addressed that scenario. Drawing on note collections from different scales is more the norm as you say.

At the same time, not a bad thing to be aware of the inventory of combinations that can be drawn from a singular scale.