Practicing and applying triads within improvisation

[mangan]

Hey, my first post here so I might just introduce myself a little. Been hanging around here for about a year but without writing. Its unlimited of great information and advices here, so I would like to thank all great people for that.

Im Magnus, live in Sweden, been playing jazz for about two years now.
Ive had two different teachers but non of them have actually told me about the importance of triads. Ive been improvising alot but without any structure, more like now and then be aware and think about voice leading. But, today my mission started. Organize the fretboard - Learning triads all over the neck and think in chords. First of to learn all major and minor and diminished with inversions. Been doing G major, D minor, C major, and F major triads today, and just had a great breakthru improvise over a I IV V cadence. It is so much more clean and organized. Its like hearing and playing the essence of each chord. This is why Im thinking of continuing this "method" or "triad organization" with only starting with ROOT 3rd 5th, then a triad with 3rd 5th 7th. To keep it "clean".

What method would you recommend, learn all chords and inversions in the key of C major. First of all R 3rd 5th and then extend with triads from the 3rd to 7th? And after that move on to the next key. More like introducing more and more tones, choose a song and start applying.

Or choose for ex. II V I IV in a key, and only work with that, maybe V7 to V7 aswell.

Or would you, lets say, choose to learn all Dom7 chords, from ROOT to 13, and then move on to maj7 and m7?
Ive got Garrson Fewell book A Melodic Approach, but ive never really dug into it.

Or maybe there is even something else? I know its up to me to find the method that fits me, but I find it interesting to see what others got to say.

Would you start with for example strings 123, then 234, then 345, 456? Or do it all at once?

Thanks,

re
Magnus

[wkriski]

I did the diatonic triads in each inversion on all strings sets in key of C, then move on to other keys around the cycle of fourths.

Then apply them to chord progressions such as the I IV V you mentioned, but also ii V I and do it on standards. This is for good voice leading, making sure each chord doesn't move more than a fret or two.

Then you could use the upper structures on these progressions so that you get the 7th, 9th, etc.

Open triads are neat too, where you widen the intervals by adjusting the octave of a note.

I like playing each interval individually over the chord or bass note as well so I can really hear them like #11, 9, 13 etc

[mangan]

Thanks for your reply.

Sounds like a great plan to do it that way. When you did the diatonic triads in each inversion, on all strings sets, did you lets say first do all the positions over the guitar on C, and then do the same with Dm and so on? Or did you choose to practice by doing all the inversions and chords within C major on the first stringsets, and then move on to the next?

I have decided to start with 1 3 5 only, and then move on to 3 5 7 extension triads just to get the foundation down, and after that add even "longer" upperstructures.

There is just endless variations of practicing it, so i guess its just to decide and stick with it.

How do you mean with playing each interval individually, like arpeggiating it, and listend to the tone color as one tone instead of a overlaying triad against the chord?

[wkriski]

Play C major first in each inversion on all string sets. Then Dm, etc. Also I played them up and down the neck (descending shouldn't be neglected) with a metronome. William Leavitt has examples where he plays them vertically as well, down the strings and back up.

I always need this stuff to be applied. I can't just play exercises I have to then apply them to progressions/tunes so I use them in my playing. Also these concepts can be used for soloing.

By intervals I mean when a song or progression is playing on a backing track, band in a box, looper pedal, etc just play the one interval on each chord. So first play roots of each chord, then 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. This is a Jerry Bergonzi idea. So for dominant 7 and major 7 chords you would play the #11. And sing them as well. This will help get the sound of each interval in your ear.

For soloing a lot of people practice arpeggiating triads but I like to use them to approach target notes as I noticed many greats do this. This link is to one of my lessons.

[MackBolan]

This is a good explanation-

Hope it helps.

[marcwhy]

If you want to go for super-charged triadic playing, take a lesson (or more!) with Chris Crocco. He has applied George Garzone's "triadic chromatic" approach to guitar, in a non-guitaristic fashion, so it makes you think quite differently. I've been taking online lessons with him for a while, and I think he's a great teacher who gives a ton of input! Give him a call: CHRISTOPHER CROCCO - Jazz Guitarist/Composer

[AmundLauritzen]

When you have the basic sound down, try adding chromatic embellishments to any and all notes of each triad.

You can do this all the way up the chords with the upper structures. Just take care when you get to the ones that give you an F natural over the Cmaj chord. It can sound... well, challenging for the ear to accept so in some cases raising the F to F# works better.

When you're done with that you can try working with diatonic triad pairs. Then modal interchange triad pairs to get some spice in there.

As wkriski said, open triads are neat and will really widen your sound from the "compressed" sound of the closed triads.

I think you've made a wise choice to explore triads. I'm on a triad spree myself and although I've worked with them for a long time now, I feel I'm barely scratching the surface.

[GuyBoden]

For information concerning triads and four note voicing, I would start here:
"Mick Goodrick" "The Advancing Guitarist" Chapter 2 "Materials"

Personally, I still think this is one of the best books ever written for Guitar.
Guy

[Dirk]

Hi Mangan, there's a list on the website of triads that work well:

Free Jazz Guitar Lesson: Upper Structure Triads

[mangan]

So many great tips and ideas. Thanks for sharing!

wkriski:

Thanks, thats the way Im looking at doing it. I just find it hard to, lets say, if i start to master the key of C, apply it to jazz standards, since then im locked into doing it the key of C "way", if so to say start with one key. But maybe instead of doing it over a standard tune I could just do it over dm G C (II V I) G C (V V) and C F G (I IV V). Or how would you apply it?
Im looking forward to extend the chords with upperstructure triads. Thats the cream!

MackBolan:

Great video, Ive been learning vertical aswell. Great source of inspiration.

Markwhy:

Thats not an option just at the moment. But thanks for the advice.

AmundLauritzen:
Yeah, its hell lot of work i can imagine, but its well worth it I guess. Im glad to hear its wise tho! Hows it going for you? How did you start of? What method did you use to start practice and apply triads? Did you start with the 1-3-5 and then move on to 3-5-7 and then upper, and do all this in one key?

GuyBoden:
Thanks, going to look into it!

dirkji:
Wow, thats a great site, perfect for when its time for upperstructure triads. Thanks a lot!

After answering all your great posts I started thinking about, if or when working in keys, and then move on to next, when do you move on? When is enough?

[AmundLauritzen]

Yeah, its hell lot of work i can imagine, but its well worth it I guess. Im glad to hear its wise tho! Hows it going for you? How did you start of? What method did you use to start practice and apply triads? Did you start with the 1-3-5 and then move on to 3-5-7 and then upper, and do all this in one key?

I've been digging into triads for the last six months or so. Prior to that my playing was based a lot around four note arpeggios that I had practiced over II-V-I's going up the partials. First playing the root triads of each chords and connecting them with lines inbetween. Then from the third of each chord and all the way up to the thirteenth. I did spend about two weeks on each partial of the chords in order for my ear and muscle memory to really internalize it. I did it in all keys.
When I started working with triads it was just a matter of eliminating the last note. But it was necessary work because my muscle memory wanted to play the four note arpeggios.
I haven't done the same extensive work with triads. I've worked a lot more specifically. And I've worked more with chord based shapes than the arpeggios I did earlier that were directly carved out of the parent scale.
The benefit of using one note per string chord grips for the triads is that it'll be muscle memory that is usable not only for single lines, but for comping as well.
Like if you take the triad pair Dm and Em and alternate those over a D dorian vamp, those triads are sufficient alone for a good chord vamp for comping, and they are great for a triad pair line as well. Triads are a great way to comp and stay out of the bassists way, as long as you choose a good register.
That's an example of a diatonic triad pair.

You can go into modal interchange. For a tonic C major vamp you could borrow the IV and V triads from the key of G major which are the C and D major triads. That D major triad gives you the lovely F#. Again if you use chord grip based shapes you'll have muscle memory for comping and single lines.

Then you can get into altered dominants. Over a G7alt you could use the Db and Eb major triad pair. A bit tricky to play in and out of, but once you get the hang of it that one sounds pretty neat.

Being creative with it and figuring it out yourself is the best way to go. Choose any chord and then test a pair of major or minor triads that are a whole step apart. First analyze it to make sure you don't have any questionable intervals in there(like a perfect fourth on a major chord, or a #7 on a dominant. Most other choices sound cool, even the ones that give you a major third on a minor chord). Then try them out. When you arrive on one you like, try that one in all keys and then put it in a tune. That's how I work with it. I'm still practicing very basic stuff. Some triad pairs are referred to as "hexatonics". This is when there are no common notes in the two triads and you can build a six note scale from them. When you pick triads a whole step apart, you're sure they have no common notes. But there is nothing wrong with combining any two triads as long as it sounds good to you.
Green Dolphin Street is a great workhorse tune for this stuff. You can use C and D major triads on the Cmaj. When it goes to Cm7 you can try C minor and D minor triads. This is the very basics. I still work with this stuff after six months of practice because there are so many variations on patterns just with two triads.

[Gertrude Moser]

Check this out, a great book that I think will provide you with the outline you looking for:

Amazon.com: Jazz Improvisation for Guitar: A Melodic Approach (9780634017728): Garrison Fewell: Books

You must take what is shown you and apply it to whatever chord qualities (maj, min, dim, aug) and tunes you're playing.

[pierre richard]

good stuff here......

their is no end to learning...is there ?

Ike Issacs Guitar School covers triads and their applications...

Of course Van Eps has his three volume set to...takes the theory into the stratosphere...

very good stuff....and really deep....well worth the effort...but not for all of us...

time on the instrument..

[FatJeff]

Don't forget that you also have augmented triads to learn. The first 44 pages of the Van Eps Harmonic Mechanisms book (Vol I) will get you there in a structured way. You basically learn full-fretboard ascending and descending diatonic triads for Major, Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor (which encompasses all 3 of the triad types), in every key. Emphasis is placed on different fingerings so that you're able to execute in several different ways instead of being tied to one fingering.

It is slow, difficult work.

I also hear that the Garrison Fewell book is good, although it didn't really click with me.

[Jimmy blue note]

For information concerning triads and four note voicing, I would start here:
"Mick Goodrick" "The Advancing Guitarist" Chapter 2 "Materials"

Personally, I still think this is one of the best books ever written for Guitar.
Guy

Yes! And if you'd like a different sound, develop these sounds as you're working on your traditional triads. This clip outlines it very nicely. I like the fresh sounds this approach instantly imparts.

[Krah13]

One of the ideas that I' m practising is the application of triads (basic triads 1-3-5) in a song context. I have tried this over the chords of "All the things you are". I think that it's a good standard to apply triads.
While practising over the progression I am trying to find new connections between triads. Then I add some tensions or chromatic notes to make the connections sound smoother.

[mangan]

Thanks for all great help and practice ideas.
Im not gonna systematicly(?) go thru every key, or master one key at the time. I think its important to go thru whole keys, but more or likely base it around the II V I in the standards. So lets say there is a couple of different II V I in a tune, then focus on just those keys for a while, and this because its worth starting with upperstructure triads right away. This instead of focusing on getting down all the root 3 5 first, since this will come with the upperstructure triads as well.

Been sitting with C F G major chords, and with their triads. Its pretty challenging to create melodies that is interesting on root 3 5 only.


By the way, do you often use triads on the top three strings in your improvisation? One note per string.

Again,

Thanks for all great info.

[OPherman47]

I actually just wrote a bit on this see Remembering the fretboard

The arp stuff is after I talk about learning the neck

If i can flesh it out further let me know

[marcwhy]

By the way, do you often use triads on the top three strings in your improvisation? One note per string.

All strings, two notes on one string (and one note on another string; and vice versa, [1 to 2] depending on the area, fingerings, etc.).

[bondmorkret]

Heja sverige!

When improvising with triads, all always use triad pairs where possible, and try to avoid playing the 3 notes of any one triad in succession, I always try to combine the notes of two neighbouring triads. It sounds better to my ear. Hope that makes sense!