Remembering the fretboard

[Desafinado]

When I say remembering the fretboard, I really mean reading it like a book. Being able to see notes flash by when you're playing like 10 notes a second and see them even before you touch the fret.
Right now I know no scales, because I feel like I have to be able to read the fretboard at this level before even attempting to remember a scale. Otherwise it will just be another pattern, and I won't be able to play it over the whole neck. My question is whether it's even possible to read the fretboard this fast, if so: how do you do it? And if this isn't the correct way: what would be a better way to learn my scales?
All input appreciated

[yaclaus]

Wow, in my ears your way of thinking sounds very strange. It is through learning the scales that you learn the fretboard´s notes. When I improvise I don´t think about what note I am playing, but I always know which note I play. So no flashes for me. However, if you stop me I can tell you exactly which notes I was playing, the rhythm and interval.

Learn a few notes and learn how to put them up an octave. Soon you will know the entire fretboard.

[Desafinado]

Wow, in my ears your way of thinking sounds very strange. It is through learning the scales that you learn the fretboard´s notes. When I improvise I don´t think about what note I am playing, but I always know which note I play. So no flashes for me. However, if you stop me I can tell you exactly which notes I was playing, the rhythm and interval.

Learn a few notes and learn how to put them up an octave. Soon you will know the entire fretboard.

But when you're improvising over a chord you should know what notes you're playing, right? That's the way I thought it worked.
I know the notes on the fretboard, I just feel I can't see them fast enough while I'm playing.

[ColinO]

If you can play at speed while thinking about the names of the notes you are playing or about to play, then you should be working on more complicated problems that learning jazz guitar, like building a space ship to other galaxies or a time machine or something. While there may be some guys that could do that (I doubt that anyone could but I don't know maybe there is some genious who can), I doubt there are many who do.

That's not to say it's not important to learn the fretboard - it is. But you really don't need the blistering fast recall that you are describing to start learning scales. Patterns are actually awesome tools.

[fep]

But when you're improvising over a chord you should know what notes you're playing, right?

Not me. If you stopped me I could quickly think of it and tell you the intervals in relation to the chord and the note names. Actually to do that I'd probably have to play the line over again slowly note by note and then tell you the note names.

Try this, sing the head to a tune you know... I'm going with Confirmation... ba dop....ba da ba dubadup... ba ba da ba da bop.. da bop ...

Anything will do, even a nursery rhyme.

Are you singing?

Are you thinking of note names when you do this? When I do this I'm not aware of the note names. It's way too fast for my feeble mind to think of note names as I'm singing that. Not exactly the same as playing the guitar, but close enough to illustrate the point.

There's a book that I really like, Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing, by Joe Elliot. Some of us are here working through that together. That book will help you understand and develop how to improvise over jazz tune changes. I recommend it.

Where quick note recognition is more important is when sight reading. However, when I sight read I still don't think of all the note names; some but not all. Sometimes you see a group of notes and the whole phrase is familiar, so I'm seeing the whole phrase relative to the prior notes or relative to chord progression. And even when not familiar, a lot of it is based on seeing intervals and not consciously thinking note names. It sure would be hard to read notated block chords if you had to think of all the note names.

[bako]

There is the individual note locations.
Playing all unisons and octaves of a single pitch at quarter notes or eighths is a good exercise.
The guitar has an almost symmetry and understanding how that plays into it is important.

Beyond that it is about the relationships between notes,
Intervals are the building blocks of both chords and scales and are the best starting place.
The clearer your mental conception is away from the instrument the easier it gets when playing.
The aural component is very important because without it the formulas are just math.
Learning to see and hear collections of notes in one gesture as opposed to itemizing each pitch.

[docbop]

When I say remembering the fretboard, I really mean reading it like a book. Being able to see notes flash by when you're playing like 10 notes a second and see them even before you touch the fret.
Right now I know no scales, because I feel like I have to be able to read the fretboard at this level before even attempting to remember a scale. Otherwise it will just be another pattern, and I won't be able to play it over the whole neck. My question is whether it's even possible to read the fretboard this fast, if so: how do you do it? And if this isn't the correct way: what would be a better way to learn my scales?
All input appreciated

Thinking is for the practice room, playing there is no time to think you listen, trust, and let the music happen.

In fact you read about the legends like Coltrane who got criticized at times for "practicing on stage", because it sounded like he was thinking on stage not letting the music come through. Others have be criticized for "practicing on stage" too. You hear it a lot with young Rock players, I used to call it the Bingo lick mode. You'd hear them and it would be like lick B-29, lick G-7, lick O-14 and so on with no flow or even connection between licks.

As to learning the fretboard for me practicing sightreading is what helped me. You start reading more real world music and it's not sticking in one postion, but you haven't got time to look at the neck, so you have to subconsciously know where you are and what notes are there. Back in early days of GIT they would talk about using that guitar in your head. That ultimate guitar is always there to work things out on or in modern terms its your guitar GPS.

[Desafinado]

A follow-up question I now have is: How do I keep al those scale patterns apart? Or should I be able to keep them apart based on their intervals?

[ColinO]

Which scales do you know? Which scales are you working on learning?

If you are starting from scratch, then learn the major scale in one octave groups. That will keep you busy for a while and will provide you with the information that will take you quite a long way in learning to play jazz.

There are really only three ways to finger one octave of a major scale - one starting with playing the root with your first finger, one starting with the root using your second finger and one starting with the root using your fourth finger. Once you learn those three fingerings, play the major scale in one octave starting with each separate finger starting all over the fretboard - for example for A major, play the scale starting with your first finger with the A(root) on the sixth string, then the fifth string, then the fourth string, then the third, then the second. Then do the A major scale starting with your second finger on the root and do one octave starting on each string, then the same thing with your fourth finger starting on the root.

Then do the same exercise in all keys.

Converting these three fingerings into two octave scales is just a matter of combining two of the three fingerings.

If you do that diligently, you will eventually come to know the fretboard well enough to find the note you want without having to search too hard.

[Jonzo]

Note names change depending on the musical context. Saying them as you play them in context can help create the link between location, context and name. I usually play a pattern at speed, and then again slower while saying the notes.

You will need to know enough theory to understand when to use double flats and such.

[pingu]

Interesting ......

Mr B whom I respect , said in another thread , that to know all the note names
all over the fretboard , is a ' non-negotiable ' I think he called it

IOWS you gotta do this


I don't play/think this way at all ......
I sort out the Key of the tune , say F major , and I know where to play in F
on the guitar , scales , chords , cliche licks etc

if I feel I want to play a minor third above F , I know the shapes to do that
I'm not thinking hmmm thats Ab ...... now here's the Ab 'lighting up' on the board

I think I'm associating the shapes on the board with different 'sound intervals' relative to the Key of the moment

maybe thats where I'm going wrong !
I'd like to know what mr B thinks of the original question (and this ) .......

[mr. beaumont]

I think you can use scales and chords as a means to memorizing the fretboard...

as far as it being nin negotiable, i still feel that way...its something you need to do...the simple process of doing it really opens up a lot of possibilities...seeing where notes live in relationship to chords you already know...that process is important.

It also takes some discipline, which, like it or not, you're gonna need to play jazz.

[docbop]

as far as it being nin negotiable, i still feel that way...its something you need to do...the simple process of doing it really opens up a lot of possibilities...seeing where notes live in relationship to chords you already know...that process is important.

It also takes some discipline, which, like it or not, you're gonna need to play jazz.

+1 I was listen to Jerry Bergonzi yesterday and similar statement about knowing how to spell chord and spell them quickly. He said its just part of being a Jazz musician and just have do it, no excuses.

[pingu]

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it ...........

And I will start the process of learning all the note names .... but

I still don't get how it helps you find the sounds on the fretboard in the moment improvising .........
(unless you've got to know the pitches as individual sounds
which must be some kind of pitch recognition which I don't have ie 'perfect pitch')

then it would make sense ............

Are you guys really saying , when your playing and you hear a pitch in your head that you wanna find
on the instrument , that you are thinking of note name etc

I'm just thinking "I think that's the 5th of F " (tonic Key F) so I'm gonna play two frets up and two strings higher etc
the shape to get the 5th above F

Anyway it takes all sorts , and that's good , vive la differance

just interested in this stuff , how different minds work etc ...... whatever

[ColinO]

...I'm just thinking "I think that's the 5th of F " (tonic Key F) so I'm gonna play two frets up and two strings higher etc
the shape to get the 5th above F

Anyway it takes all sorts , and that's good , vive la differance

just interested in this stuff , how different minds work etc ...... whatever

How do you know where the F is if you don't know where the notes are on the fretboard?

[pingu]

How do you know where the F is if you don't know where the notes are on the fretboard?

I can find them OK given a bit of time
enough to find the tonic and the roots of chords , but if I need a Bb7b5 chord
I don't think "let me see hmmm ..... I need ....... Bb D Ab with maybe E on the top" or whatever

I just know/learned by rote some shapes for the various 7b5 (lyd dom) type chords
I wanted to make sure we're giving correct advice on the correct thinking process etc

for ex

I was talking to the Bass player at a jam session , the other day
some sax player got up and asked for ' I thought about you'
anyway this bassist said fine ,the sax wanted it in Db or something I wasn't expecting
and the Bass player had no trouble with that (I had some trouble)
We were talking afterwards and I said "hey you're really good at tranposing on the fly ...... how do you do that so easily"

"Oh if I know a tune well , I'm not bothered what Key its in , I don't transpose it , I just kind of hear where it goes next"

Fantastic I thought ........ WOW I'd like some of those ears man !

I just think there's different ways people play/think/hear

So are we correct in teaching ...... you must learn this way or that ?

[ColinO]

So are you saying that the bass player didn't even need to know what key the song was in? I suspect not. Even people with relative pitch need a reference in order to even get started. If you want to play an arpeggio you better know at where at least one of the chord tones are. If you want to play an interval, you better know where at least one of the notes in that interval are. If you want to play a chord, you better know where the notes in that chord are.

I think that sometimes people are expecting the impossible when they expect that they will somehow magically know which notes to play without actually knowing which notes they are playing or even having a reference point. I'm not trying to be an ass, but I just think that makes no sense. Even guys who purport not to know how to read music know where a Bb is. They might not recognize one on a sheet but if you ask them to play one, they can do it.

Put it another way - Would you actually tell someone that it's not helpful to know where the notes are on the guitar in order to play jazz? And if it is helpful (and it's really easy) then why on God's earth would you ever suggests that anyone should not learn them?

[mr. beaumont]

I guess I picked up this way of thinking from playing with a piano player who knew a lot more than me...he'd say stuff all the time like "Put an Ab on top of that" or "just play an E, C, and D there...he'd talk in note clusters, not chord names...

Now I just find it convenient...I can think about things away from the guitar a lot, which is very beneficial for me, and I can find melody notes on top of chords very quickly...I don't know if these things necessarily make me a better player, but they make learning songs and spending my time playing more efficient, which I like.

[pingu]

So are you saying that the bass player didn't even need to know what key the song was in? I suspect not.

no

I think that sometimes people are expecting the impossible when they expect that they will somehow magically know which notes to play without actually knowing which notes they are playing

I do this ..............
for ex I might here a little pattern and play that (on a good day !) and not know the note names I just played
or another for ex I might just noodle in F major scale on a vamp or something and not know the note names
I just played

or even having a reference point.

No I do need a reference

Put it another way - Would you actually tell someone that it's not helpful to know where the notes are on the guitar in order to play jazz?

no I wouldn't do that

And if it is helpful (and it's really easy) then why on God's earth would you ever suggests that anyone should not learn them?

I wouldn't do that

I don't want to fall out over this ...............
Sorry if I offended

[ColinO]

No offence taken and sorry if I sounded like there was. This is an interesting topic to discuss/debate and you offerred a good sounding board because you took an interesting position. In the end, everyone has a different way of thinking about these things that works for them, so have at it.

Cheers.

[OPherman47]

This is the way that my guitar teacher got me to learn the fretboard, and i mean really know the fretboard. (I had been playing professionally for years and thought I knew it, but this was one of the ways to beat it into your brain very deeply, so you can even visualize the fretboard with your eyes shut) I have had great success with this with people who are new to the guitar as well as seasoned players that I teach.

Use the cycle. (if you don’t know what that is yet, it is the list of notes on the next line)

C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G

Start on the first string (that’s the highest string, or the one closest to the floor as you hold the guitar)

Find the C note (8th fret) then find the C note an octave higher on that same string (not all guitars have all the notes in two octaves on each string, you will discover this) this helps you learn the notes above the 12th fret and be able to leap up and grab them without hesitation, i find students tend to know up to G above the 12 fret and not the rest very well.

Then find the F (1st fret) then the higher F (13th fret) go through the cycle listed above C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G
for all the notes you will learn alot (wow i dont have a second Eb on the 1st string) this learning will become intuitive.

Do this exercise up and down each string. Until you can go from the 1st string to the 6th string doing this exercise with a metronome uninterrupted (this also helps concentration, and lets you know if you really really know where your notes are)

After this start on the 1st string and find the C (8th fret) go to the C on the second string on a higher fret (13th fret) the c on the 3rd string on the higher fret than the 13th etc. then go back down. Then start on your F on the first string (1st fret) then F on the second string higher fret, then 3rd until you run out up the neck and strings) then back down. Go through the cylce on this as well C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G.

Once you got that you are half way there (good job by the way)

Then use the cycle C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G to go through these 4 other ways.

This is what i call "diagonal up" first string to 6th and back. (find the highest C on the first string if you have it) then then C on the 2nd string 13th fret then c on the 3rd string then go back up the way you came down. Then F, Bb etc do the cylce this way starting on the highest pitched string going diagonally up and back down. crossing the strings

Then do what i call diagonal down. start on the highest C on the 1st string, then the next C on the 2nd string (13th fret) on down to the 3rd string and back up. finish out the cycle.

Then start on the lowest string the C (8th fret) then C on 5th string (15th fret) 4th string then back down. I call this diagonal low to high.

Then the reverse of that I call diagonal low backwards (i know terrible names you are basically criss crossing the fretboard) so start on the highest C on the 6th (or lowest pitched string) and then C on the 5th string (15th frest) and keep going backwards 4ths string etc. Until you have completed the cycle C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G

Of course once you master a direction get out that metronome because its important that you find these notes in time (ie under time pressure, until you can find those notes effortlessly (kenny werner anyone???). (how fast can you go and still find them cleanly, landing precisely????)

This also helps with forward motion in solos (dont worry if you dont know what this is yet) as you are forced to find even and odd numbers of the same note yet still drive forward in time with the metronome. a mentally tricky game.

Once you complete this exercise you will know your neck and the notes pretty darn well. You wont believe how much this will help your reading of music too.

Once you have it up and down one string i normally only encourage my students to do the diagonals as a warm up. Up and down one string doesnt offer much benifit at that point.

This helps with seeing the fretboard (quickly, accurately etc)

Now to your second question. And this goes into what is called position playing as well. Learn your scale patterns starting on each string. Then go through the cycle in one position C, F, Bb, Eb etc... then move to the next position.

I mix it up. Play up and back down through the whole cylce, play up an arpeggio and down the scale etc, be creative...

If this post is way out of line with the originals question just let me know I will delete it.

Bergonzi uses the scales through the cycle thing as do most horn players, as guitarists who are generally late to the game with these kinds of drills, etc. Its helpful to get with the program. Using the cycle also gets an important note progression in your ears and internalized.

[GuyBoden]

This is the way that my guitar teacher got me to learn the fretboard, and i mean really know the fretboard. (I had been playing professionally for years and thought I knew it, but this was one of the ways to beat it into your brain very deeply, so you can even visualize the fretboard with your eyes shut) I have had great success with this with people who are new to the guitar as well as seasoned players that I teach.

Use the cycle. (if you don’t know what that is yet, it is the list of notes on the next line)

C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G

Start on the first string (that’s the highest string, or the one closest to the floor as you hold the guitar)

Find the C note (8th fret) then find the C note an octave higher on that same string (not all guitars have all the notes in two octaves on each string, you will discover this) this helps you learn the notes above the 12th fret and be able to leap up and grab them without hesitation, i find students tend to know up to G above the 12 fret and not the rest very well.

Then find the F (1st fret) then the higher F (13th fret) go through the cycle listed above C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G
for all the notes you will learn alot (wow i dont have a second Eb on the 1st string) this learning will become intuitive.

Do this exercise up and down each string. Until you can go from the 1st string to the 6th string doing this exercise with a metronome uninterrupted (this also helps concentration, and lets you know if you really really know where your notes are)

After this start on the 1st string and find the C (8th fret) go to the C on the second string on a higher fret (13th fret) the c on the 3rd string on the higher fret than the 13th etc. then go back down. Then start on your F on the first string (1st fret) then F on the second string higher fret, then 3rd until you run out up the neck and strings) then back down. Go through the cylce on this as well C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G.

Once you got that you are half way there (good job by the way)

Then use the cycle C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G to go through these 4 other ways.

This is what i call "diagonal up" first string to 6th and back. (find the highest C on the first string if you have it) then then C on the 2nd string 13th fret then c on the 3rd string then go back up the way you came down. Then F, Bb etc do the cylce this way starting on the highest pitched string going diagonally up and back down. crossing the strings

Then do what i call diagonal down. start on the highest C on the 1st string, then the next C on the 2nd string (13th fret) on down to the 3rd string and back up. finish out the cycle.

Then start on the lowest string the C (8th fret) then C on 5th string (15th fret) 4th string then back down. I call this diagonal low to high.

Then the reverse of that I call diagonal low backwards (i know terrible names you are basically criss crossing the fretboard) so start on the highest C on the 6th (or lowest pitched string) and then C on the 5th string (15th frest) and keep going backwards 4ths string etc. Until you have completed the cycle C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G

Of course once you master a direction get out that metronome because its important that you find these notes in time (ie under time pressure, until you can find those notes effortlessly (kenny werner anyone???). (how fast can you go and still find them cleanly, landing precisely????)

This also helps with forward motion in solos (dont worry if you dont know what this is yet) as you are forced to find even and odd numbers of the same note yet still drive forward in time with the metronome. a mentally tricky game.

Once you complete this exercise you will know your neck and the notes pretty darn well. You wont believe how much this will help your reading of music too.

Once you have it up and down one string i normally only encourage my students to do the diagonals as a warm up. Up and down one string doesnt offer much benifit at that point.

This helps with seeing the fretboard (quickly, accurately etc)

Now to your second question. And this goes into what is called position playing as well. Learn your scale patterns starting on each string. Then go through the cycle in one position C, F, Bb, Eb etc... then move to the next position.

I mix it up. Play up and back down through the whole cylce, play up an arpeggio and down the scale etc, be creative...

If this post is way out of line with the originals question just let me know I will delete it.

Bergonzi uses the scales through the cycle thing as do most horn players, as guitarists who are generally late to the game with these kinds of drills, etc. Its helpful to get with the program. Using the cycle also gets an important note progression in your ears and internalized.

Great post, I found this a difficult exercise, but a very good exercise.
Thanks for sharing.
Guy

[OPherman47]

It was a long first post, i have been lurking here for a long time... finally joined last year, its a great forum.... there are a lot of smart people here I only want to post when i feel that i have something to add.

Another cool thing you can do with this is do the same drill but with triads putting the root up and down one string on the cycle and then going criss cross on the strings, add the metronome of course one you get them in your mind and under your fingers.

major, minor etc with roots on 1st 2nd string etc throught the cycle.

Then a cool thing you can do is take your major triads and drop the root by a whole step giving you a rootless dominant 7th voicing. or leave the root and raise the 5th to the 7th and you have another 3 note dominant 7th voicing.

then take those 2 dom. 7th voicing through the criss cross drill etc

(now your cooking with a lot of material)

then take these triads through standards..... can you jam all over the neck on any tune??? with just triads??

how bout adding the melody note on top and read through a tune with just triads and melody???

try jumping around freely with the triads on the tune, then try moving your fingers as little as possible and read through a tune with just triads (voice leading goodness) this helps train your ear to hear small movements

This is a great way to work up to bill evans'ish type stuff, instead of just improving with melody he loved to improvise with voicings as well

[ColinO]

OPherman47 - These drills really look great - I wish I wasn't at work so I could try them now. Thanks.

[Desafinado]

Thank you for taking the time to write this out in so much detail! I'll definitely try this. Looks very promissing. Exactly what I was looking for