Scale Fingering System

[brwnhornet59]

So Berklee contains CAGED, you might say. You can slide up and down between positions and learn how the patterns connect and overlap. And when you've worked a bit with techniques like Mick Goodrick's "hand carry" (or "Sitar Guitar") - improvising along just one string, and then giving yourself two strings... then three, etc. -- after a while, visualizing the neck linearly becomes very easy, and connecting the Berklee shapes up and down the neck is as easy as it is with any other system, imo. To me, the neck is quickly becoming one big scale - finally. Heh.

A related note: Pat Metheny said he recalls cutting class in high school and sneaking into the bathroom with his guitar... He said he'd play _All the Things You Are_ (and other standards) along one string, to force himself to know the neck. Then he'd let himself have two strings. He'd use rubber bands to tie off the disallowed strings, so they couldn't ring at all. That's dedication.

kj

Yes!! One big scale is the greatest visualization. I love exploring the alternate fingers between the over laps of each position as well. Being able to finger up and down into each position, and the usage of different string sets or intervals set up from which finger you decide to use, really helps me see lines in a way that I usually would gliss over from one transition to the next. So kind of like sub fingerings of the main structure. Of course I am anal and a glutton for punishment, but it is sure paying off! Besides, it is so much fun and quite fascinating to discover new territories where you thought there were no more. The same holds true for arps. Alternate fingerings for them in between transition points really helps you see the bigger picture when analyzing smaller lines. I love it.

[Kojo27]

i hear you. i learned Leavitt's as well.

but stretching is weaker, or can be. not as much down pressure with the stretched 1rst or 4th fingers. the pinky in particular is weak. stretching it makes it doubly weak.

so, you have to work at it to make stretches work.

It takes a damned LOT of work. More than some will invest, probably. I have a suspicion that if the Berklee students weren't there to see (and hear) the playing of so many other guys who'd mastered it, there would be a lot fewer who persevere to learn to play music with these "stretchy" scales. It's quite a wonderful thing though, when it starts flowing smoothly. I have very small hands (though very flexible) and I've developed about an 8-fret stretch. Five fret stretches don't slow me down at all. Not now, that is. : )

[bako]

Two study approaches:

Playing everything you can think of within one fingering idea-----
This will quickly reveal it's strengths and weaknesses.

Play a phrase or full melody everywhere and with every possible fingering-----
To train yourself to quickly see options and compare their strengths and weaknesses in this situation.

[Kojo27]

Yes!! One big scale is the greatest visualization. I love exploring the alternate fingers between the over laps of each position as well. Being able to finger up and down into each position, and the usage of different string sets or intervals set up from which finger you decide to use, really helps me see lines in a way that I usually would gliss over from one transition to the next. So kind of like sub fingerings of the main structure. Of course I am anal and a glutton for punishment, but it is sure paying off! Besides, it is so much fun and quite fascinating to discover new territories where you thought there were no more. The same holds true for arps. Alternate fingerings for them in between transition points really helps you see the bigger picture when analyzing smaller lines. I love it.

Ah, you might dig Frank Vignola's brief study of arpeggio fingerings. It's in one of the great little books he did recently for Mel Bay. His goal, he says, is to help the student become proficient at finding as many different fingerings for basic arpeggios as are possible on the guitar. Right off the bat, he showed me a super-basic one I never would have thought of.

(string - fret# in parentheses): CMaj7 - C (5 - 3), E (4 - 2) G (4 - 5), B (3 - 4) C (2 -1).

What - nobody would ever use it? Not true - I've used it already, sort of. Going for a major 9 sound, I played the arpeggio right up to the final, stretched-to C, then hammered on the following D, simultaneously slid up to the 2nd string E, 5th fret, and then back down to the D and played a C6/9 chord - voila! Thank you, Mr. Vignola.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Mr. Warnock's fingerings only go to the right(unless i missed something). So maybe my idea that I should play scales in both directions is not that important. Keeping them in one direction does seem to make them easier to visualize and remember.

I think that the examples he gave may go one direction or the other, but I don't think he's limiting anything to one "direction", although I'm still not sure what exactly we're talking about there. I wouldn't necessarily assume that his notated scale example implies a rigid method of playing.

I think Matt's system is a good start even for youngsters. Then you can study all the rest of my Teacher's way but you already can improvise on tunes. And you will of course GO TO THE LEFT to stay in the same position.

I think there's a lot of confusion about what Matt's doing with this. It's just another way of getting at the same thing. What seems to be inferred by everyone is that Matt is teaching students to only play 1-octave modes and then, connect them to each other. The 1-octave fingerings are simply a method for seeing what's the same in each fingering rather than what's different. For example the 2,4,1,2,4,1,3,4 major scale fingering is the same across all the string sets when you start on the root with the second finger.

He gets students started playing that, and because of the symmetry (with allowance made for the 3rd/2nd string interval), they're easily learned even by beginners. Then he shows them how to alter one note to turn that Ionian into Mixolydian and so on.

It's easy to see, visually, and one can actually comprehend the changes in intervals between the modes without a lot of effort because things are symmetrical. I think learning one position at a time in the traditional way that most of us probably learned makes it harder to actually think about intervals because things look so different in each position.

Of course once you've played around with this for a relatively short time, it would be easy to play the Ionian pattern I used as an example above and immediately go into the dorian shape on the next string. That's the same play-it-in-one-position technique that you're talking about your teacher using. You're just learning it or thinking about it in a different way.

So Berklee contains CAGED, you might say. You can slide up and down between positions and learn how the patterns connect and overlap.

They're the same in the sense that the fretboard patterns are the same, but can you really say, "The fingerings are the same except for the way you finger them."?

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

So Berklee contains CAGED, you might say. You can slide up and down between positions and learn how the patterns connect and overlap.

They're the same in the sense that the fretboard patterns are the same, but can you really say, "The fingerings are the same except for the way you finger them."?

I'm not sure what you're saying, Matt. I might have run two things together here. When I said that you might say "Berklee contains CAGED," I meant only to say that, since the twelve fingerings in the Berklee system include patterns (fingerings, whatever) that are practically the same as the CAGED patterns, except for CAGED's lack of "stretches," it might not be much of an error to say that the CAGED system is within the Berklee system, more or less. Or that if you already know Berklee, then learning CAGED wouldn't take an enormous amount of work. Something like that.

I never intended to say the fingerings are the same. They obviously are not. A couple are, though - or they're very close. "E" and "C"? Or 2E and 4A?

To answer your question as a hypothetical, No - you couldn't well say such a thing. Maybe that the "patterns" are the same except for the way you finger them - that seems sensible. Again, though, I'm short on coffee, so I might be missing your point. If so, I'll try again - just restate.

kj

[brwnhornet59]

There is nothing limiting about Matt's methods. In fact they are quite liberating. Most students tend to over do everything so much, that they don't see the simplicity of certain idea's. I also went that route. So for me, using Matt's methodology has been quite beneficial. Especially in the use of practicing all modes of all scales in one key. This pedal tone creates the soundboard that is required to hear them. One pedal note gives all 7 keys of the mode. His ideas are also a very easy way to start the exploration of very complex ideas. The only thing limited by his methods would be the students inability to expand on these ideas.IMHO

[matt.guitarteacher]

Kojo, All I was saying was that the similarities have to do with the way the notes fall on the fretboard, and that doesn't change. I've played with both and see the similarities the same way you do. I just think a fingering is a fingering, and only a couple of them are the same, between the two fingering systems, but again, that's just because of the way the notes happen to fall on the fretboard.

Also, I prefer talking about Bruno vs Leavitt fingerings. CAGED is more of a general understanding of how the notes/chords fall on the fretboard and isn't really systematized. There are several different fingerings, with and without stretches, that different people call CAGED fingerings. Apparently people have a lot of different ideas of what CAGED means. I tend to think of CAGED as being generally what Bruno is doing.

No offense intended. It's just semantics..."fingerings" versus "fretboard patterns". I understand what you were saying.

[Reg]

yes... that system was taught at Berklee... only choice is 7th degree or Loc. most switch to either same fingering as 6th or back to 1st degrees.
Most fingering work. The general point is to have simplest motion, and simple transitions to other positions. The 1st and 4th fingers are for stretches, and your base or 2nd finger is usually your strongest and easiest to use for reference when changing positions.
In actual use... most never stay in one position and when reading, you don't want to have to watch your fingers to change positions etc... Another fairly important point about Leavitt's fingering... their for jazz boxes with heavier strings... traditional jazz players.
What fingerings guitarists use... can and usually does reflect what and how guitarist play.
I use different fingerings all the time to help create different styles... Different fingerings create different accent patterns, accent patterns are grooves. When you get into articulations and phrasing... fingerings and picking become one more detail we need to be aware of. Reg

[JohnW400]

Play a phrase or full melody everywhere and with every possible fingering-----
To train yourself to quickly see options and compare their strengths and weaknesses in this situation.

+1000

When learning new one octave arpeggios a good thing to do is to make up a short riff with that arp and take it through the cycle of 4ths starting off of each finger/string.

Same with a good melody (like the first bar of Scrapple From the Apple or Groovin by Diz)

[brwnhornet59]

Ah, you might dig Frank Vignola's brief study of arpeggio fingerings. It's in one of the great little books he did recently for Mel Bay. His goal, he says, is to help the student become proficient at finding as many different fingerings for basic arpeggios as are possible on the guitar. Right off the bat, he showed me a super-basic one I never would have thought of.

(string - fret# in parentheses): CMaj7 - C (5 - 3), E (4 - 2) G (4 - 5), B (3 - 4) C (2 -1).

What - nobody would ever use it? Not true - I've used it already, sort of. Going for a major 9 sound, I played the arpeggio right up to the final, stretched-to C, then hammered on the following D, simultaneously slid up to the 2nd string E, 5th fret, and then back down to the D and played a C6/9 chord - voila! Thank you, Mr. Vignola.

Yeah, I use these ideas. There are several extensions that come to mind with this pattern.

(5-3) (4-2) (4-5) (3-4) (3-5) (2-5) (1-3) (1-7)


or


(5-3) (4-2) (4-5) (3-4) (2-1) (2-5) (1-3) (1-7)

[brwnhornet59]

What fingerings guitarists use... can and usually does reflect what and how guitarist play.
I use different fingerings all the time to help create different styles... Different fingerings create different accent patterns, accent patterns are grooves. When you get into articulations and phrasing... fingerings and picking become one more detail we need to be aware of. Reg

Agreed!!!

[Kojo27]

Kojo, All I was saying was that the similarities have to do with the way the notes fall on the fretboard, and that doesn't change. I've played with both and see the similarities the same way you do. I just think a fingering is a fingering, and only a couple of them are the same, between the two fingering systems, but again, that's just because of the way the notes happen to fall on the fretboard.

Also, I prefer talking about Bruno vs Leavitt fingerings. CAGED is more of a general understanding of how the notes/chords fall on the fretboard and isn't really systematized. There are several different fingerings, with and without stretches, that different people call CAGED fingerings. Apparently people have a lot of different ideas of what CAGED means. I tend to think of CAGED as being generally what Bruno is doing.

No offense intended. It's just semantics..."fingerings" versus "fretboard patterns". I understand what you were saying.

Yeah - good point about Bruno vs. CAGED as a better contrast to Berklee. And no offense taken - none at all. Hope I didn't give that impression.

BTW, Matt - if you have the pentatonic fingerings that utilize a first-finger slide and then a "symmetrical fingering," i.e., 1, 2, 4 -- I'd *love* to learn those. I'm pentatonic poor, compared to most, but in love with the Eastern/exotic sounds of the major scales, and love legato. .PDF files don't decode, or something, on this forum. My email is kojo.27 AT gmail; if you have time, I'd appreciate it much. If not, no prob.

kj

[Kojo27]

Yeah, I use these ideas. There are several extensions that come to mind with this pattern.

(5-3) (4-2) (4-5) (3-4) (3-5) (2-5) (1-3) (1-7)


or


(5-3) (4-2) (4-5) (3-4) (2-1) (2-5) (1-3) (1-7)

Hey, cool. You're zooming up to that B (doesn't that note just ring out like a bell on guitar for some reason? Maybe it's just me.)

The Vignola book has actually been around a while - I thought it was new. It's completely different in intent from Latarski's book, seems to me. The latter is more of a thesaurus, no? Vignola's purpose is to explore the fingerboard and discover new roads and new sounds. Like you're doing here!

[brwnhornet59]

I sent you some stuff Kojo.

[brwnhornet59]

Hey, cool. You're zooming up to that B (doesn't that note just ring out like a bell on guitar for some reason? Maybe it's just me.)

The Vignola book has actually been around a while - I thought it was new. It's completely different in intent from Latarski's book, seems to me. The latter is more of a thesaurus, no? Vignola's purpose is to explore the fingerboard and discover new roads and new sounds. Like you're doing here!

I never saw the books, so I have no idea, but they sound cool! I am a stickler for new fingerings. I am never satisfied!!!

[brwnhornet59]

pentatonic fingerings that utilize a first-finger slide and then a "symmetrical fingering," i.e., 1, 2, 4 -- I'd *love* to learn those. I'm pentatonic poor, compared to most, but in love with the Eastern/exotic sounds of the major scales, and love legato.

kj

I look at pent shapes two positions at a time. So i can finger every extension of every combination possible within the two positions. This really helps in seeing the shapes as they move up and down into each other. sounds cool to!

[whatswisdom]

I have very small hands (though very flexible) and I've developed about an 8-fret stretch.

From what position?

[Kojo27]

I sent you some stuff Kojo.

COOL! To my gmail? If so, it hasn't arrived. Did you notice the dot between kojo and 27? kojo.27 AT gmail? Don't know why I put that in there - it confuses everybody.

[brwnhornet59]

Yes, I sent it to [email protected]

Should have been there a while ago. I just sent it again.

[Kojo27]

From what position?

On a great day, from 1st.

On a good day, from 3rd.

On any ol' day, from 5th.

But it's an ugly thing - probably not of any practical use. But this is from doing the Berklee scales. One of the scales that feels best to me, for whatever reason, has 5-fret spans on 4 of the six strings. It'll stretch your fingers.

[Kojo27]

Yes, I sent it to [email protected]

Should have been there a while ago. I just sent it again.

Got it! Thank you, sir! Love this kind of stuff.

KJ

[brwnhornet59]

Got it! Thank you, sir! Love this kind of stuff.

KJ

I have tons of different stuff!

[bako]

I use different fingerings all the time to help create different styles... Different fingerings create different accent patterns, accent patterns are grooves. When you get into articulations and phrasing... fingerings and picking become one more detail we need to be aware of. Reg

I believe this is the most important point about fingerings.
It starts with a musical idea. A fingering is just a tool in service of the music.
Certain fingerings will best support a particular phrase for a particular player.
When preparing a part from a written score, we can agonize in detail about the best finger for each note.
Sight reading is another story and as improvisors we can never be too prepared.

[whatswisdom]

On a great day, from 1st. On a good day, from 3rd. On any ol' day, from 5th.But it's an ugly thing - probably not of any practical use. But this is from doing the Berklee scales. One of the scales that feels best to me, for whatever reason, has 5-fret spans on 4 of the six strings. It'll stretch your fingers.

Ouch!

I learned Aaron Shearer fingerings (classical). The biggest stretch I've had to execute (and play the notes clean) in a musical context was a six-fret distance in one of Joplin's rags ("The Easy Winners.") 1st finger/2nd fret > 4th finger/7th fret.

BTW - a great left-hand exersize I get enormous benefit from is to play Gb major scale in octaves from 1st position. Up/down stepwise; in 3rds; in sequence, etc. Really helps develop finger independence and makes reaching easier.