Diminished pentatonic scale

**JakeAcci** · 07-06-2011, 02:06 PM

Just came across something I thought was quite useful

Scale: 1, b3, b5, 6(bb7), 7

Because of the symmetry of the diminished scale you could replace the seventh with 2, 4, or b6/#5 and it would basically be the same scale. (We could say the scale is four notes all a m3 apart, with ONE added note a half step below ONE of the other notes.)

Extremely guitar friendly, and I often like the sound of a major seventh (note) over a diminished seventh chord.

Could work work based off the b9, 3, 5, or b7 of a 7b9 (or to any dominant that you might apply the diminished scale - 13b9, 7b5, etc.)

---

Most five note scales lay across the guitar in a "two note per string" configuration quite easily. That's pretty useful, ey? Two notes per string...

..and alternate picking is a two part process. The two parts are:

1. down

2. up

All seventh chords are four note structures, but you add in one tension and they are...

**mr. beaumont** · 07-06-2011, 02:51 PM

Ooh..I like this...need to play around with it today.

**JakeAcci** · 07-06-2011, 03:03 PM

Great, Jeff! My goal to do one useful thing today has been accomplished!

**brwnhornet59** · 07-06-2011, 03:24 PM

That's fun. Makes a nice arp to! Thanx Jake!

**bako** · 07-06-2011, 03:56 PM

A few harmonizations:

C Eb A---Eb Gb B---Gb A C---A B Eb---B C Gb

C Eb B---Eb Gb C---Gb A Eb---A B Gb---B C A

C Gb B Eb---Eb A C Gb---Gb B Eb A---A C Gb B---B Eb A C

**JakeAcci** · 07-06-2011, 04:49 PM

Hip shit Bako, thanks!

**JakeAcci** · 10-28-2011, 12:22 PM

Thought about starting a new thread but maybe I'll just keep my personal scale thoughts in one thread.

I've been playing over "Days of Wine and Roses" quite a lot lately and have come across two new (to me) scales that I like a lot

For bar 4, D7 (I play it D7b5b9):

D Eb E# F# G# B C (D)

Ok, it is just a H/W diminished scale without the A. Here's the thing though, without that A note it's also a D altered scale with 13/6 instead of a b13/b6/#5.

Also, the A note is the fifth...a consonant note over the chord. Taking out the fifth it's more of an altered sound anyway, as you have no option for fifth vs b5, it's just always b5. You also get a m3 in the scale sequence, which is a little fresher sounding to me.

I came across this sound because I found myself playing altered dominant lines but wanting to hear a B triad within it.

"quartal" harmony from this scale results in some interesting things, especially quartal pattern based melodic lines.

Also, I've been playing bar 3 as Am7b5/D - so bar 3 already has the Eb - I think it's neat to add even more tension in bar 4 that needs to resolve in bar 5.

I came across another scale then realized it's just the third mode of harmonic major. So I'm not original, but maybe just reminding others about it's presence. It's quite useful:

A7 - A, Bb, B#, C#, E, F, G

Very useful - no avoid notes, but a natural fifth. I think of this as a much more consonant scale over a dominant chord (resolving to a minor) than the fifth mode of harmonic minor (A, Bb, C#, D, E, F, G). In this group of notes, you don't hit the D, which is what the chord is resolving to anyway, and you get the b9, #9, and 3, which I always find to be a really pretty group.

I found it to be the most logical first-choice option for the second half of bar 13 (the ii V to Dm) - the melody has the root and fifth of the A7.

Interestingly, if you harmonize triads of the scale in thirds (as you do to normally extend chords) you get

Am
C
Edim
Gdim
Bbm
C#+
F

Which isn't that useful, because in the above list the #9 is forced to be treated like a b3. So if you flip the Cs and C# in the above list - making the first triads use C#s and the later "triads" use Cs, you get

A
C#dim
Edim
G Bb C cluster
Bbsus2 (Bb C F)
a second inversion F triad (C F A)
F

Point is that if you start at a low register and play, ascending, the triads in the first list you don't get a useful dominant sound (to my ears), but the 'triads' in the second list yield something interesting to me.

But I bet Bako has a less convoluted and more practical way of looking at these issues!

**jmstritt** · 10-28-2011, 04:45 PM

Just what I need, ANOTHER thing to work on! Damn this forum... LOL

;-)

**JakeAcci** · 10-28-2011, 06:07 PM

Glad someone is intrigued! Certainly no pressure to practice something I just stumbled on a few days ago and haven't practiced that much myself.

**brwnhornet59** · 10-28-2011, 06:13 PM

Interesting Jake. I will take it for a spin and let you no how I make out.

**bako** · 10-28-2011, 06:13 PM

"But I bet Bako has a less convoluted and more practical way of looking at these issues!"

I don't know about that, but thanks for the vote of confidence.

I try to play through harmony in a way that either emphasizes the commonality or differences in the evolving progression.
Awareness of various modes and note collections provides the tools to make this happen.
For me it is a strategy that can lead to new discoveries as well as moments where I am in over my head.
I hesitate to use the word mistake because I prefer to think of it as my temporary lack of skill to navigate the introduction of an unusual harmonic color.

Ex. Fma7 // Eb7#11

If I want to link FMa7 to the Db in Eb7 I can pass through FMa7+
F, G, A, C, are already common tones between the 2 chords
If I want to extend the E in FMa7 I can make the progression FMa7 BbMa7 // Em7b5 Eb7#11 //
I'm not hearing much at the moment for Bb and B possibilities in this context (F lydian and Eb7+ include the B)

It is a work in progress.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thinking without the song reference about a B triad in a D7 context

Start with C D# F# B and add one more note to form a pentatonic

A few possibilities:

C D D# F# B
C D# E# F# B
C D# F# A B (referenced in the opening post)

or chord pair/hexatonics

Gsus and B
Fsus and B
F and B
C+ and B

**JakeAcci** · 10-28-2011, 06:51 PM

Also...here is the tune (the changes I use) with all possible triads for each chord stacked in thirds, using conventional chord-scales.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Xplbk1mM2k4Zmc

There are a lot of interesting things to try with this kind of sheet - one could arpeggiate one spread triad per measure, but randomly select which row they choose the triad from for each new chord (column.) Generally, the lower the row, the further away from the basic harmony one gets.

I've been playing around with different patterns. For example, a zig zag, where you alternate between the first row and the second row as the chords change. So the triads you'd get would be F, Gdim, Adim, Cdim, Gm, Db+, etc. A lot of possibilities.

If anything, just doing this kind of stuff has made me more aware of the changes when I go to to play more conventional lines.

**jmstritt** · 10-29-2011, 10:28 AM

Very cool for an inside outside altered dom sound. I like subbing that in over the V in a minor ii V i!

**JakeAcci** · 11-01-2011, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by bako

"But I bet Bako has a less convoluted and more practical way of looking at these issues!"

I don't know about that, but thanks for the vote of confidence.

I try to play through harmony in a way that either emphasizes the commonality or differences in the evolving progression.
Awareness of various modes and note collections provides the tools to make this happen.
For me it is a strategy that can lead to new discoveries as well as moments where I am in over my head.
I hesitate to use the word mistake because I prefer to think of it as my temporary lack of skill to navigate the introduction of an unusual harmonic color.

Ex. Fma7 // Eb7#11

If I want to link FMa7 to the Db in Eb7 I can pass through FMa7+
F, G, A, C, are already common tones between the 2 chords
If I want to extend the E in FMa7 I can make the progression FMa7 BbMa7 // Em7b5 Eb7#11 //
I'm not hearing much at the moment for Bb and B possibilities in this context (F lydian and Eb7+ include the B)

It is a work in progress.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thinking without the song reference about a B triad in a D7 context

Start with C D# F# B and add one more note to form a pentatonic

A few possibilities:

C D D# F# B
C D# E# F# B
C D# F# A B (referenced in the opening post)

or chord pair/hexatonics

Gsus and B
Fsus and B
F and B
C+ and B

For Gsus are you thinking G C D, 1 4 5?