Tips on alleviating tension when picking?

[jzucker]

McL's way of playing is - by now - very old fashioned and has been discarded by the younger generations

No Rich.

Mclaughlin is at the forefront of the world-music generation of fusion players that have combined indian and middle eastern rhythms with jazz. Players as diverse as fareed haque, matt garrison and tony grey are hugely influenced by McLaughlin.

[fumblefingers]

yep...Interestingly McLaughlin kind of proves the dictum that it is ultimately the musician and not the technique which comes thru....and as such, disproves my little theory:

On the face of it, McL uses the "right technique" (according to my homegrown theory) and has fluidity and good time but he still produces lackluster results....No dynamics, same fast heavily accented picking ALL the time, no legato, and no shape/architecture in his solos....these are all things that are ultimately controlled by how the musician "hears" it, and not the technique....if things aren't in the solos, then it is clear the musician just doesn't hear them -or has deliberately chosen to eschew them....

McL's way of playing is - by now - very old fashioned and has been discarded by the younger generations - history has shown that the more legato, voice/hornlike approach has had the most traction....

Wes also proves that if the musician is well developed he/she can overcome even very inefficient techniques....Ultimately how a musician sounds is a direct reflection of the "musician" inside...and his technique is simply a funnel....the better the musician the less effect the "funnel" has....

yeah, your way off. its clear that you have not heard much of his work.

old fashioned? you should read the recent comments that Frisell made about him being a constant innovator who keeps developing how he phrases and shapes lines etc. he also told a story about how he almost quit the guitar when he was young, and it had finally dawned on him that he would never be able to do what JM did. have you heard JM's latest album? no offense but your comments above are absurd. sorry to say.

[Reg]

Here's a different JM clip.... I usually just think of economy as not picking all the notes as opposed to alternating as picking all the notes... I know kind of an oxymoron but very simple as opposed to worrying about whether each pick stroke is in opposite direction... but I'm easy, whatever works.
I also tend to think of picking technique as what works without practice... not memorizing a phrase. Kind of like sight reading...being what you can read without having practiced it... so maybe as Rich said the better the musician... the less technique needed. But that may be more a reflection of drive or motivation, To me personally... good technique is one of the requirements of being a "good" musician. I tend to make my comments as to the norms... not the exceptions.
Good discussion and very helpful for guitarist... with goals. here's another guy with pretty good picking technique. Best Reg

[jzucker]

Jack,
No disagreement at all w/ John's influence in the music world at large...The guy is some kind of genius musician to have invented some of the genres he did....I was referring to his actual playing.....What do you think?

Yes, I agree with you there. I've always loved the energy he plays with but have rarely been tempted to transcribe his solos. His music yes, his improvised solos, no.

[jzucker]

That stella clip is ridiculous. Too bad the camerawork is so bad. I wanted to see bireli's right hand more. Does he use his elbow on the faster stuff? Hard to tell on that video. It's interesting that he gets the benson tone on the fast stuff but does not tilt the pick . My theory is that a good part of that tone is due to the staccato nature of the light left hand on those fast lines as well as the pick angle.

[jzucker]

you used to sound like GB Rich. When you were playing with a pick prior to going fingerstyle, did you use benson picking? Are you using benson picking now?

[wizard3739]

Huh? You don't know what you're talking about. Here's me using mostly elbow. Also do some research. Paul bollenback (have you even heard him?!?) uses his elbow.

+1 yes Jack, very true. Also, Howard Roberts, Howard Alden and almost everyone who went through G.I.T. in the late 70's and early 80's. Anchors of any kind were not recommended.

wiz

[fumblefingers]

Well, I *TRIED* to sound like GB ;-)

I haven't ever used GB picking.....I love the tone you get w/ it and it clearly also allows for some heavy chops if desired, but the dampening problems, and the loss of fingers for hybrid is too much of a sacrifice for me.

Also, I have seen/heard too many cats who can sound like that using the normal hand on bridge....

To me the dampening problem is a MAJOR problem. You can't really play contemporary jazz without having a TOTAL command of gainy sounds. The world has changed - jazz requires so many things nowadays that the forebears had no inkling of. Legato, distortion, effects etc etc.

As for me, I use a thumbpick now, w/ heel on bridge....

when you say legato i think you mean ligado.

[jzucker]

Hey Bornman,

I listened to Isaac's clip and of course it's amazing. So, I bought his CD yesterday. Listened to it on a long run today. He's a good player. Harmonically he still sounds like a developing player but I'm sure in 10 years we'll all be transcribing him.

However, one thing that I noticed and I have noticed this with all "bridge anchor" players is that the tone is somewhat bright and harsh. This works better for pop stuff but for mellow jazz stuff it's not as "sweet" (for lack of a better word).

Another variation of that is to do what metheny does and "anchor" to the low e string.

[Spirit59]

James Muller.........dude's not of this earth.....

RB - have you seen this one:
James Muller Trio - Live Music Concert Video - Metro Theatre, Sydney 2008 | Moshcam

Whole show is still there. This tune is a rhythm changes vehicle tour-de-force. By the 3nd time he signals the band to up the tempo, you're saying, "No fucking way...."

I've lifted a couple of choruses of this and a lot of this is *really* hard to play. (what a surprise)

[jzucker]

that muller cut is great. Very modern take. However, for rhythm changes you gotta compare it to benson or Dan Wilson. Dan just murders rhythm changes.

[thenoviceguitarist]

Dan just murders rhythm changes.

+1 VERY TRUE.

Anytime I ran RC with Dan, he insisted on burning it at like 260 haha. I fumble around like an idiot for several choruses, missing nearly every change. Then Dan steps in, and beats the living crap out of it! Dude's unreal, its seriously effortless for him, and he never runs out of ideas.

[jzucker]

+1 VERY TRUE.

Anytime I ran RC with Dan, he insisted on burning it at like 260 haha. I fumble around like an idiot for several choruses, missing nearly every change. Then Dan steps in, and beats the living crap out of it! Dude's unreal, its seriously effortless for him, and he never runs out of ideas.

Dan is one of the few cats that can play a solo guitar version of Oleo at 1/2 = 275 and not only nails the changes but plays with a feel that would make George Benson smile.

[jzucker]

Yep, Dan is incredibly talented!!

BTW, isaac darche studied with one of your favorites: Kenny Burrell

[jzucker]

Did he mention anyone else he studied with?

I haven't listened to any of Issac Darche's music btw - I just saw that picking vid once...Isn't that Muller vid incredible tho????? Perfect time, incredible feel, incredible sound, amzing creativity....just stupendous musicianship

I love muller's playing but to me, playing over rhythm changes is not where he shines the most. I like his more modern tunes better.

[mr. beaumont]

Does Al know how to party or what!?

Kidding about seriousness aside, that vid's full of good ideas...

[fumblefingers]

Did he mention anyone else he studied with?

I haven't listened to any of Issac Darche's music btw - I just saw that picking vid once...Isn't that Muller vid incredible tho????? Perfect time, incredible feel, incredible sound, amzing creativity....just stupendous musicianship

nice playing for sure, but i don't see anything particularly memorable in that one. i think that it could be fairly adjudged in a manner not unlike how you take John Mc. that is, it was a blowing session. it didn't have an arc, tell a story, didn't start or end with any statement, and wasn't very melodic with the exception of a few passages. not that i'm knockin' a blowing session, that's jazz.

again, nice player. i am not that familiar with him but one thing struck me right away. heavily influenced by sco, right down to the guitar.

[jzucker]

Check this vid ..... later in there Al mentions the "elbow" picking vs wrist/hand on bridge thing.....

You crack me up with your attempts at using youtube to prove or disprove theories. You tried that with me when I mentioned Fareed Haque uses his elbow when picking. After I had sat several feet in front of him and talked to him and emailed him and you tried to tell me I was wrong and posted a bunch of youtube videos which "proved" your point.

Jimmy Bruno picks from his elbow. How's his swing feel?

[Shadow of the Sun]

I really find the arguments here 'bout wrist vs elbow picking rather amusing.

Lots of players play from their elbow, and lots of players play from their wrist. There's a bunch of good players who play from either.

This is more or less a dick-waving competition 'tween you guys because BOTH ways are effective.

[jzucker]

This is more or less a dick-waving competition 'tween you guys because BOTH ways are effective.

Try reading the thread. I've been saying all along that both techniques are effective. Maybe you're the one dick waving.

Anyway, folks familiar with bornman know that he's just trying to take a swipe at my playing because I use my elbow. But this way it's more dramatic...

[jzucker]

Jack,
Definitely not swiping at you - don't you let the palm of your RH lightly graze the strings? What do you do to dampen the strings or when you need to play muted lines?

i use the right edge of my hand. Sometimes when I'm playing methenyesque stuff i'll leave the right edge of my hand touching the strings all the time to get that quasi muting effect that he employs. That also works good for fusion.

[Reg]

Have you or would you post a vid of your picking etc... I'll gladly try and make suggestions... or at least be a backboard.

[markf]

yeah, your way off. its clear that you have not heard much of his work.

old fashioned? you should read the recent comments that Frisell made about him being a constant innovator who keeps developing how he phrases and shapes lines etc. he also told a story about how he almost quit the guitar when he was young, and it had finally dawned on him that he would never be able to do what JM did. have you heard JM's latest album? no offense but your comments above are absurd. sorry to say.

Thanks, I was trying to figure out how to respond to this, you did it for me.

he descended into drivel with that comment.

[jzucker]

WOOOOOHOOOOOO this thread is back ;-)

Fareed actually sent an email saying he picks w/ hand on bridge. Case closed buddy - but it was EASILY observable on a multitude of YT vid's.

Well, he asked for a copy of my books and emailed me that he does indeed use his elbow when picking fast so case closed - but it was EASILY observable on a multitude of tunes that I didn't merely watch on YT but actually saw 10 feet away from him...BUDDY