Tips on alleviating tension when picking?

Stringbean · 05-08-2011, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I'd consider those words a little more carefully if you want to be taken seriously.

my god man, you are power trippin.

**jzucker** · 05-08-2011, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Stringbean

my god man, you are power trippin.

No, he's doing his job as a moderator and I'm grateful.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-08-2011, 10:26 PM

Well, you can't please everybody, huh?

We're pretty far off topic though, lemme try to steer back. Anyone else think you have to be reallly careful reccommending anchoring to someone starting out? I've seen plenty of guitar players with bad anchoring habits who are full of tension...

**Spirit59** · 05-08-2011, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, you can't please everybody, huh?

We're pretty far off topic though, lemme try to steer back. Anyone else think you have to be reallly careful reccommending anchoring to someone starting out? I've seen plenty of guitar players with bad anchoring habits who are full of tension...

Well there's anchoring and then there's anchoring.

I use my pinky as a feeler gauge on the pick guard and my palm is in contact with the bridge (on a semi-hollow). I am picking from the wrist. I have zero tension going on.

I'm 51 years old, and at 50, I was very comfortable with my right hand, until gradually, all the YouTube videos of Adam Rogers and his demon right hand began to.....er...get to me....

I decided to give it a go and flipped the angle on the pick and within a few months, I knew there was no turning back - the feel, the control, but mostly the sound! And I switched to the little pointed ProPlec that he uses too at the same time - that's the sound!

God I sound like a fanboy but hey - the more I bore witness to that particular splendor that is AR's right hand, I was powerless and had to change what I was doing and I'm glad I did.

Oh yeah - picking from the elbow?

For *me* it does seem like using a sledge hammer to work on a watch mechanism....just seems more tense but to each his own.

**fumblefingers** · 05-09-2011, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

nope, mclaughlin and adam float.

P.S.

I love how in one paragraph you put down Sandole, johnny smith and PB and diss their time and that we shouldn't listen them them because they just talk a good game. Instead, we're supposed to listen to *YOU* an anonymous poster?

[EDIT]

Oh wait, you're RichardB, RB, haha...I shoulda known. For folks who don't know, Richard Bornman can actually play but seems more interested in just starting arguments on the internet until he gets chased out.

And P.P.S.

When your bio looks like Paul Bollenbacks, call me up and I'll eat my words

JZ - i have seen McLaughlin a number of times over the years. the last two times were in 2010 and 2008. i didn't take note of his right hand technique but i sure did back in the 80's. i remember him pressing his hand on the bridge of his ovation very hard when he would bare down to play his fastest passages. i subsequently changed how i held my right hand, it made such an impression on me. is that what we mean by anchoring on the bridge? is it possible that he changed over the years, or am i misunderstanding the technical explanation here?

**jzucker** · 05-09-2011, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Richb

you only have to *look* at it to instinctively know it is stiff

Charlie Bird made a similar comment about playing with your thumb when he had heard about (but not heard) Wes Montgomery. Richard, you're full of myopic statements about what is and what isn't jazz (which you then change every few years). Also, posting a clip of one guy who happens to play from the elbow struggling to play jazz lines doesn't prove anything. It just proves that particular guy on that day was struggling. How about Jimmy Raney? He played from the wrist. I know from past conversations you think he doesn't swing. What does that say? That playing from the wrist doesn't swing? Or have you changed your mind about raney after getting publicly flamed by Russell Malone and Jon Raney ?

How about emailing Paul B and telling him some of the stuff you're saying here? Get his point of view? Maybe I'll forward the thread to him and see what he has to say?

**JakeAcci** · 05-09-2011, 09:36 PM

Rich had a youtube clip of him babbling for a while but then had some hot shit of him playing over some straight 8ths tune in 7/4. That was great. That still up? Couldn't find it.

Johnny Smith may be my favorite guitarist.

Rich, who, to you, is an example of a guitarist who does all these things "right?"

If you don't like Johnny Smith or Ben Monder...or Kenny Burrell or Jesus McGuitar, then who?

**mr. beaumont** · 05-09-2011, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

have fun in your little RB world.

Richard, you have no etiquette. The proof of that is how many times you have been shut down by people like Jon Raney, Russell Malone, Juris and others. The stuff you say on these boards you would never have the balls to say to musicians' faces. If you did, you'd end up on your ass with a black eye.

Ah! And which common sense rule is that again?

**mr. beaumont** · 05-09-2011, 11:30 PM

you don't have to stifle an opinion...there's just a way to say you don't agree with or enjoy a player without being...y'know...obnoxious about it.

**jzucker** · 05-10-2011, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by AleikhBaba

LOL. oh man it's a treat to see older jazz guitar players bicker

It's even more fun to see 22 year olds who know it all.

Regarding picking from the elbow vs. wrist - Several folks have asked me about this and I wanted to clarify. I allow my right hand ring finger to graze against the pickguard when I play. I play from the wrist with an assist from my elbow. I developed the elbow technique during my studies in the '70s with Dennis Sandole. Later on, I switched back to the wrist when studying with Pat Martino and I believe playing from the wrist allows for a looser swing feel. However, after my spinal surgery about 6-7 years ago, I suffered permanent nerve damage to my right arm and find that picking from the elbow is easier for me in some cases. However, I would not advise students starting out to pick from the elbow but it's a balance. If you're reasonably proficient from the elbow, I wouldn't advocate changing. Basically, the feel and groove is the most important thing. If you've got that, don't worry about the other stuff. Also, the music will dictate the technique. Work on the music you want to play and your technique will adapt to it.

**setemupjoe** · 05-10-2011, 01:05 PM

Interesting thread. RichB says students should be looking to the greatest guys, but I argue that is in the ears of the beholder.
I have never been a big fan of Kenny Burrell and by and large his playing leaves me cold. I have spoken to others who revere him as a god. In my early years I listened to a lot of Jim Hall and actually took lessons with him, but a lot of people just don't get turned on by his introspective style. So who is right? Who is "the guy" that we should all follow? I argue it should be the person or people that turn you as an individual on and get you excited.
I would also argue that Paul Bollenbeck and anybody else you care to mention that sits at his level of expertise, is playing exactly the way he hears it. You may not care for his sense of swing but then I always had a problem with Monk's sense of swing too. Who's wrong here, me or him? I prefer listening to Art Tatum or Bud Powell. But I'd be ignorant to dismiss Monk.
Right hand technique is the main aspect of guitar technique that is different and personal for every player. We all check out each other's right hand technique when we meet like dogs sniffing each other's butts. Everyone has their own way of getting the job done. That doesn't mean they're all equal, but every style and technique has it's strengths and weaknesses and it helps inform and shape how we play and sound. I always think a great player is great not because of his physical technique but despite it. The music is in our heads and then we battle and fight to make it out of there and through our hands to the guitar neck. It's a challenge no matter how you look at it.
Personally I've been using Benson's right hand technique for almost 20 years. Rodney Jones taught me that and I thank him every day for that gift.

**jzucker** · 05-10-2011, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by AleikhBaba

To be more specific, how does the bridge on the guitar itself factor in when shaping one's technique.

Not much. I play archtops and solid bodies and have the same technique on both.

**jzucker** · 05-10-2011, 01:37 PM

Very good posting.

Richard's basically saying that he can hear it even if you can't and further that you're an imbecile if you think that Russell Malone, Paul Bollenback, Barney Kessel, Tal Farlow or Jimmy Raney could play swing feel on the level of George Benson. If you can't hear it, you're a poor musician and don't know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

Interesting thread. RichB says students should be looking to the greatest guys, but I argue that is in the ears of the beholder.
I have never been a big fan of Kenny Burrell and by and large his playing leaves me cold. I have spoken to others who revere him as a god. In my early years I listened to a lot of Jim Hall and actually took lessons with him, but a lot of people just don't get turned on by his introspective style. So who is right? Who is "the guy" that we should all follow? I argue it should be the person or people that turn you as an individual on and get you excited.
I would also argue that Paul Bollenbeck and anybody else you care to mention that sits at his level of expertise, is playing exactly the way he hears it. You may not care for his sense of swing but then I always had a problem with Monk's sense of swing too. Who's wrong here, me or him? I prefer listening to Art Tatum or Bud Powell. But I'd be ignorant to dismiss Monk.
Right hand technique is the main aspect of guitar technique that is different and personal for every player. We all check out each other's right hand technique when we meet like dogs sniffing each other's butts. Everyone has their own way of getting the job done. That doesn't mean they're all equal, but every style and technique has it's strengths and weaknesses and it helps inform and shape how we play and sound. I always think a great player is great not because of his physical technique but despite it. The music is in our heads and then we battle and fight to make it out of there and through our hands to the guitar neck. It's a challenge no matter how you look at it.
Personally I've been using Benson's right hand technique for almost 20 years. Rodney Jones taught me that and I thank him every day for that gift.

**setemupjoe** · 05-10-2011, 02:00 PM

Thanks Jack,
Far be it from me to be able to climb inside Richard's head and express what he's thinking. I have a hard enough time doing that with my own head. I can understand your frustration though. Richard's posts, while contentious, did serve to highlight some worthwhile points though, which I tried to outline in my previous post.
I've heard some great guitarists play some amazing stuff with what I would consider to be lousy technique. What do they know that I don't? All I know is what works for me, what I feel comfortable with in my own skin and then flying with that. When I saw Rodney doing what he does with the Benson method, I thought, I've gotta learn that, and it feels like a perfect fit for me now. To many others it's awkward, leaves sympathetic strings ringing and doesn't allow for finger picking.

**jzucker** · 05-10-2011, 02:45 PM

By the way, when I saw Fareed Haque in Cleveland last spring he picked from the elbow quite a bit. Don't remember if he anchored or not.

**JohnW400** · 05-10-2011, 02:54 PM

Here's a you tube of Vic J. He uses a couple of different approaches. The elbow picking is at around 1:52 and 2:18.

**jzucker** · 05-10-2011, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Here's a you tube of Vic J. He uses a couple of different approaches. The elbow picking is at around 1:52 and 2:18.

makes sense as he was also a student of sandole's...

**Reg** · 05-10-2011, 05:03 PM

That's an old video of Vic... I thought it was very sloppy... he now picks from the wrist and has cleaned his picking act up considerable. Would be very cool to see videos of all the posters on this thread... ( Jack you obviously have ton of great Videos all over this forum)I'll gladly post, here's something I posted this morning on a thread about playing standards, This months tune is Nica's Dream. I wasn't really trying to burn, but you can see my technique. I'll make a new one where all I worry about is burnin, just to see how my technique holds up... Thanks Reg

**mr. beaumont** · 05-10-2011, 05:48 PM

I'll play. I'm not really a "burner," but I 'spose I can play fast enough when it's called for.

Gimmie a day or two--I'm gonna try for two vids--one playing a semi-hollow and one playing a selmer style--my picking does change a bit depending on the guitar I'm playing in order to get the most out of it.

It'll be cool to see all the different styles side by side.

**Reg** · 05-10-2011, 07:33 PM

Cool Mr. B.... I'm not starting a pissing contest... but yea... actually see what we're talking about... the different styles of picking in action, and the point about different guitars is very true. Thanks Reg

**mr. beaumont** · 05-10-2011, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Cool Mr. B.... I'm not starting a pissing contest... but yea... actually see what we're talking about... the different styles of picking in action, and the point about different guitars is very true. Thanks Reg

Yeah, didn't take it that way at all...I think of it as a cool bit of research.

**fumblefingers** · 05-10-2011, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by AleikhBaba

LOL. oh man it's a treat to see older jazz guitar players bicker

anyway, yeah this a great thread for the infotainment that it has provided so far, I'm gonna ahead and summarize some of the what has been said and pitch in (primarily because I've been really focusing on just about every detail of my technique and really trying to get it all under control).

Firstly, as Beaumont pointed out, breathing is KEY. I neglected this for a while, and breathing while playing (especially when doing finger gymnastics) allows for the body to be relaxed. I think this is something that I really had to deal with head on when I started getting into classical guitar. Breathing allows me to maintain good posture! (It's also interesting to observe one's breathing as one plays, because the breathing itself creates kind of a counter rhythm cycle).

And yes, tension creeps in partly because of uncertainty - which means that one has to practice the rudiments in all combinations and permutations. Furthermore, when playing without a metronome, I really try to feel a strong quarter note so my body can intuitively anticipate correctly different rhythmic subdivisions. Obviously I'm myself working on this, and I really take the time to observe and be conscious of all the various neural connections and muscles that are in action when I'm picking.

As far as the debate regarding John McLoven's cosmic right hand - careful observation has revealed that when he's picking the lower set of strings (E to D) the heel of his palm does rest a lil' above the bridge. However when he moves to the higher set of strings (G to e) his wrist is unanchored (he anchors his arm near the elbow where it rests against the body of his guitar). Of course I'm sure he changes up his own game every once in while, Mahavishnu McLoven.

that seems to be an accurate description of his technique. works quite well for him

**jzucker** · 05-10-2011, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Cool Mr. B.... I'm not starting a pissing contest... but yea... actually see what we're talking about... the different styles of picking in action, and the point about different guitars is very true. Thanks Reg

reg, you sound great as usual. I want to hear more. You have any recordings out?