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We've all heard it, such a beautiful mode. The #4 gives it this floaty, airy kind of sound without being too out there like the whole tone. I often try and squeeze this into my playing any chance I get over a major chord, but I find that it's not enough to serve this mode justice.
Do any of you guys have a certain jam you pull out that's all Lydian when gigging, or simply playing with friends? The only chord progression I can really think of that brings out this kind of sound is IV-V.
I've experimented with different progressions but it doesn't satisfy my craving to really bring out the Lydian properties.
When do you use it?
Any certain rendition of a song that uses it often?
How would you go about bringing it out in a chord progression?
Love it? Hate it?
Talk Lydian to me.
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03-07-2011 10:46 AM
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Hi,
Quick response. I use the Lydian scale a lot to end songs that end on a major 7th chord. For example, lets say the song ends Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7. Play a C lydian major scale (C D E F# G A B) over the Cmaj7 ending. Don't be afraid to hang on the F#. You get a great blusey sound that you have hear a zillion times before. You fellow musicians will look at you an nod approvingly.
Another "trick" is to play a Bm7 arp over the Cmaj7 ending chord. If you want to go further outside, try a D major arp. These will also give you the lydian major 7th sound.
There are other ways to hear this great sound but these are most basic and you can use them at a gig tonight. Check out my book for more tips.
Hope this helps.
Ron
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03-07-2011, 03:24 PM #3Baltar Hornbeek Guest
I use the Lydian to run my harmonica over chords. My harp is an A, so I use D Lydian to blowsuck over Dmaj to C#minor and stuff like that.
I sometimes use it as a sort of interlude or respite from a more roots based sound. Kinda like Macca used to do with the Wings.
As for love/hate, I have it ranked #9, in the great list of wonderful musical marvels.
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This song is the Lydian Giant Steps equivalent! Look up the chart in the Bill Evans book...
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Just grab a handful of end jams from phish songs. And you can transcribe Trey's playing for days. They're fun to jump into and when you are just using the IV and V, the excitement of the song is in the dynamics.
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It's not something that I've had much experience with, to be honest, but I've been using it sparingly as it has become less conceptual and more practical to my playing. Last night I was playing over a Bmaj7 Amaj7 vamp and played A lydian(the #4 of A being the 3 of B). Sounded pretty good.
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I'm super into Lydian. Any IV chord is Lydian by default. The parallel keys each have IV chords that can be borrowed. Here's an example:
Key of C
IV F Lydian
IV/IV Bb Lydain
IV/V C Lydian
IV/of Parallel minor (Eb Major) Ab Lydian
IV/IV of that is Db Lydain
and IV/V of is Eb Lydian
That 6 total Lydian chord-scales available that relate to C Major (A min).
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Lydian Dominants are from Melodic Minor.
The can be used to rearm Mixolydian chords within the key/parallel keys. They also are used as tritone subs for ALT (super Locrian).
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Other chords and progressions can be Lydian as well. If you say it's Lydian (and hear it that way), it's Lydian.
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This [the bold part] just went off in my head like a roman candle, or like a big piece of the puzzle just fell into place. It's pretty obvious in hindsight, but I've been staring at this connection right in the face too hard to realize just how simple it really is.
Originally Posted by JonnyPac
Thanks Jonny, I think you just opened a major door for me!!
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Same scale, same 3 and b7 inverted! Happy to help.
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On Green Dolphin Street the A part is Lydian
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It's worth repeating. Consider G7. What are two common ways to use the jazz minor over G7? Originally Posted by jckoto3
1. G lydian dominant = D jazz minor (G A B C# D E F G)
2. G altered = Ab jazz minor (G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G)
But you can also think in terms of G7's tritone substitution, Db7. What are two common ways to use the jazz minor over Db7?
1'. Db lydian dominant = Ab jazz minor
2'. Db altered = D jazz minor
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Are you sure that's not backwards? the Bm is further out, and the Bm includes the maj7? Originally Posted by rlemos
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Playing a minor pentatonic 1/2 step below the root of a major chord creates a nice Lydian sound. Woody Shaw, Bill Evans and others made great use of it.
E min Pent over Fmaj7 emphasizes the M7 M9 M3 #4 M6
Chords can be built this way too. Em/F is a common voicing.
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Originally Posted by drobniuch
That's true, but a misleading generalization.
The C is I of C, the Cm7 is actually Ebmaj7/C (Eb Lydian), the D7/C is V/V of G (D Mixolydain), and the Dbmaj7/C is IV/IV of the parallel minor (Eb Major), so it is Db Lydian. In short:
C Major, Eb Lydian, D Mixolydian, Db Lydian
These can be subed and reharmed, etc. Seems like jazzers just play what they want half the time. It's a starting point.
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Extended use of Lydian is not common. IMO, two beats on a chord is not long enough to establish a mode. Originally Posted by musicjohnny
In jazz, the #11th may well be a more fitting extension for major chords than is the natural 11th.. It is common to call these chords Lydian or the #11 the Lydian note, but this is not really the use of a mode. I am sure there are some, but I can't think of a jazz song with the extended use of the Lydian mode
I more associate the mode with evoking childhood images, children in playgrounds bouncing on seesaws. Examples: The Simpsons theme song, To Kill a Mockingbird theme song, and not for visions of childhood The Jetsons theme song,
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Check out Metheny's Bright Size Life, there's a bunch of lydian on that tune. It's fun to jam on.
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This is the first "modal jazz" tune I ever wrote. It's an AB form. A is F Lydian and B is Cmaj Bb Lydian Dominant. I'm not sure about this clip; I've never watched it myself till just now...
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Wait wait wait, I think I'm missing another part of the big picture here, but something seems like it's about to fall into place again!! Originally Posted by JonnyPac
First off, just by re-arranging the Roots in this example, I get: C F Bb Eb Ab Db. This seems mighty familiar I imagine that the cycle progression would hold true for say E Major:
Key of E Major:
IV A Lydian
IV/IV D Lydian
IV/V E Lydian
IV/parallel Minor's Relative major [G Major] C Lydian
IV/IV of that F Lydian
IV/V G Lydian
Re-arranged: E A D G C F -- Neat-o!!
I think I got that right?!
Second, I tried interchanging those 6 Lydian scales that pertain in this fashion to C Major over a few minutes of a pedal CMaj7 chord and with a little care I was getting some nice jazzy sounds without sounding too outside (to my ears anyway). Neat trick, that!
I'm definitely excited to explore this idea of "secondary Lydians" more in-depth, but some ideas on how to approach this would certainly be welcome.
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Thanks so much for all the info guys, I'm trying hard to rettain it all.
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Awesome. "Secondary Lydians" rule!! Glad to help.
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check out "the saga of harrison crab feathers" in real book #1
try this....
8 bars of C lydian.
8 bars of Bb lydian.
the rest of the tune in Ab lydian.
That was a good one for me to get acquainted with modes, the harmony is so simple that you could use any diatonic mode in each section.
great modal tune for sure.
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I use to play games in the one jazz ensemble, a few years back, we had lots of work... anyway... we played standards and contemporary jazz... depended on gig, all great players.... So the game was I would call some form of chord, since this thread started with Lydian, I'll say Lydian... the game was you had to play the implied Lydian chord from actual changes... example take Green Dolphin st... The trick is with a bunch of diatonic chords you need to re-harm or pull from a sub sometimes to have harmonic movement.
So Cma7 could become C7, which would have Bbma7#11 as lyd. chord, C-7 would have Eblyd. , D7 could have Clyd. etc... there are many options and we all had to use our ears to follow. The game could be all SubV, which most of the time can use Lyd.b7...
Anyway helps keep your transposing skills and you ears busy, and on standards, sometimes we would come up with nice re-harms
Or you could play "The Real Guitarist" (in the house) by Steve Kuhn
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Hey y'all. I'm new here so I hope you don't mind if I just chime right in, and please forgive me if this idea has already been presented. Originally Posted by musicjohnny
IMO, lydian (well, #4 anyway) is THE way to go over almost any chord that has a MA 3rd, and is not occupying a primary function in the diatonic sequence--a maj7th that's not a tonic and a 7th that's not a V dominant. The Ebmaj7 in the bridge of Night and Day is an example. Key of C, and suddenly Ebmaj7 just appears. Eb lydian beats Eb ionian hands down, and when it returns to Cmaj7, C lydian even works there, since the C wasn't set up by a strong cadence (unless you had to go and toss in a 2-5 in front of it!) Bright Size Life--another good example. The 2nd chord (Bb maj7, the A in the bass isn't important) just follows a Gmaj7, no cadence to set up an ionian tonality. Perfect candidate for lydian.
Or consider (all of) the Ab7s in Angel Eyes. Ab Lydian dominant sounds much better than mixolydian, even when it's going to resolve downward to G7, making it a kind of dominant. It doesn't matter--it still takes the same scale, as long as it's not going to resolve up a 4th. If the Ab7 was going to move to Db something, then you'd want to consider something more Ab alt-ish.
Glad to see folks serious about Jazz!
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welcome.
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