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Hey, I got a PM asking to rephrase my secondary Lydian thing:
It's not as bad as it seems. Thinking key signature helps a lot. Parallel related keys are one sharp/flat away from one another. Keys G and F are parallel to the key of C. All of the chords from the related keys are available to be borrowed, not just the dominants. Therefore, Bb Lydian and C Lydian can be used in progressions in C Major.
That's the first set. It gives us F, Bb, and C Lydian.
The next set is from Eb Major (AKA C Minor). The keys C Minor and C Major are another form of parallel keys. "parallel minor" as it were, thought I think Eb Major, not C Minor since I prefer just thinking key signature.
The parallel keys of Eb are now available just like the first set. That gives us Ab, Db, and Eb Lydian.
The total is 6: C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, and Db Lydian. These all sound great when they eventually resolve to the tonic C Major.
Better??
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04-01-2011 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Aristotle
Look in your RealBook and check out Joe Henderson's Inner Urge. Originally Posted by Aristotle
3 different sections of tonicized Lydian chords, each one is 4 bars in duration.
Wayne Shorter's Wild Flower has 3 consecutive bars of Abmaj7#11.
Woody Shaw's Moontrane has the back half of the intro moving 2 bars into the A section for a total of 6 consecutive bars of Bbmaj7#11
Herbie Hancock's Oliloqui Valley has 4 consecutive bars of Emaj7b5.
Chick Corea's Litha has 4 consecutive bars of Fmaj7#11.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg - there are countless others. And these can all be found in the Realbook btw.
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Wow. Four entire consecutive measures of Lydian? And all that extracted from just 100 years of jazz. Let me see if I can clear some time on my calendar to fit in four measures.
That's more the tip of an ice cube. What you are describing is the absence of "extended" use. Sorry to see you go to all that work for nothing. I have to give you credit, though. Most people would have just said A-Train or Desafinado; and referred to measures 3 and 4.
Off the top of my head, the closest thing to extended use would be Benrstein's Cool from West Side Story - but I am sure someone would tell me that's not really jazz.
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Bird was using lydian back in 1945 and in the '60s a HUGE amount of music was written with lydian as the tonic.
Originally Posted by Aristotle
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Inner Urge has *12* consecutive measures of Lydian. How much do you need to be convinced of tonicization? Originally Posted by Aristotle
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Where did you get the idea I was unconvinced about tonicization? Your descriptions are off on quantification. A few measures of anything is not "huge" amount. Nor is a song that changes key center every two or three measure making "extended" use of ANY mode. Originally Posted by Spirit59
Inner Urge has *12* consecutive measures of Lydian. How much do you need to be convinced of tonicization?
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Aristotle,
After going back and re-reading your posts, I think I may have an idea of where you're coming from. In your mind, for a piece of music to qualify as "modal", do you require it adhere to the strict criteria that defines the usage of "church modes"? i.e. entire piece is composed using only tones from the chosen mode, usually (always?) without harmonization? I can understand that POV, as one could argue that many of the examples I mentioned earlier are more accurately defined as "impressionistic" jazz.
In fact, if one adheres to the strict (original) definition of "modal", anything within the modern jazz realm could never meet the criteria, as modern jazz "uses" modes as more of a suggestion; a point of departure, and is quite loose in it's interpretation, while the original concept of "modal music" does not makes such allowances.
My usage of the term "modal" is more coming out of the usage common to jazz terminology of today (post 1960?) and I believe it's not a bad thing, as long as it's mutually understood, which, this forum giving some context, I thought was a given.
Am I in the ballpark?
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59,
I'd say I'm somewhere in between two the extremes on what a mode is. Most of what is called a mode isn't, and OTOH, it is common to refer to almost any #11 or b5 as "lydian," even if it comes along with a aug 5 or a b7. Inner Urge is half Lydian, which is a pretty fair amount; and I didn't think of it.
But I think if you look at the original set of questions I responded to, I think you'll see my response is reasonably tempered in the context of what it reacted to.
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That's cool, Spirit... I "dig" that stuff.
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Hi JP, Originally Posted by JonnyPac
Can you give an example abouth musicians from the 20e century who play modal jazz?
I don't want buy, I just wanna hear some names
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I was listening to Ravel this morning and discovered the opening bars of this is the LCC stacked P5ths to Lydain!!!
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This is explained at about 2:40 in this lesson:
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Looks interesting.
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Very interesting, as long as it has something to do with lydian.
lydian major scale (C D E F# G A B) are there any lydian minor scales??
Originally Posted by rlemos
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If I'm not mistaken, (C D E F# G Ab Bb) is C lydian minor. I know, it has a major third, weird, eh? Originally Posted by Krenwin
Very interesting, as long as it has something to do with lydian.
lydian major scale (C D E F# G A B) are there any lydian minor scales??
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First, i care mare about sound/function than names but....
Why wouldn't the Lydian minor be the 4th mode of the Harmonic Major scale?
F G Ab B C D E
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It is! Originally Posted by JohnW400
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O.k. it's here
http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/gui...=post&id=12245
for my self I'm sure E-G-Bb-D-(F#) = Emi7=(9)
C-E-(G)Bb-D=C9 (with Ab=C13.
I see it as a maj/min chord, hybryd
Thank you man
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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The Bb is the b5. E-9b5or my self I'm sure E-G-Bb-D-(F#) = Emi7=(9)
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Correctomundo...:p Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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Hi Krenwin, Originally Posted by Krenwin
Very interesting, as long as it has something to do with lydian.
lydian major scale (C D E F# G A B) are there any lydian minor scales??
I am not a music theoretician. My posts, articles and book reflect what I would actually play on a gig. Therefore, I would very much like feedback from you (and others) as to whether you liked the lydian suggestions that I posted in this thread. Theory is great. However (for example), do you like how a D major or Bm7 arp sounds over a C major chord at the end of a song? If you don't like the sound, all the theory in the world doesn't matter--don't use it. If you do like the sound, it is fun to go back and analyze how/why it works.
Back to your very good question on a lydian minor scale. I do not know the theory one way or another. However, I only think of lydian in terms of major or dominant chords. To me, lydian means #4 on a major or dominant chord. This is the "color" that I hear. I never "think" of a #4 for a minor chord. Instead, my ear/brain processes this sound/interval as a minb5 sound/color. Therefore, my answer would be that if you want a b5 sound/color over a minor chord, there are several very good options. For example, in a minor tonality tune like SummerTime (in Am), the b5 note (Eb) sounds good over the Am7 chord. I would probably use it in the context of a standard 6-note Am Blues scale (or as described in my book, the A Minor Blues Pentatonic Scale). You could also use the various Locrian Scales over a IIm7b5 chord. Sometimes when I am playing I use the m7b5 sound over the IIm7 chord in a regular II-V-I progression. I like the "bluesy" sound of the b5 note over almost any minor chord.
However, once again, try these suggestions with guitar in hand, over an actual tune or chord progression. This is the "final test" on what is right for you.
Sorry to go on so much. I often see debates in various forums and posts on what is right or wrong without evidence that someone actually tried the suggestions. Even more important (to me)--does it work on a gig? I personally find that theory that I can't incorporate into my actual gigging is not much use for me--even if I find it fascinating.
Hope this helps. Best wishes,
Ron
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A wise man made it very clear to me why, (besides the obvious reasons), a questionable name like #4 vs b5 comes into play and named the way it is.I never "think" of a #4 for a minor chord. Instead, my ear/brain processes this sound/interval as a minb5 sound/color.
When you see a scale like dorian #4, the 4th mode of harmonic minor, it is all about whether or not the 5th itself is natural. In this case, dorian #4, the 5th is a perfect 5th. So lydian minor is indeed what it is.
In a case like lydian Dom, 4th mode of MM, vs a dom7b5, I always argue that there is no b5 in a major chord, it is #4. But he pointed out, strictly from a composer/arranger, p o v, that the implication of a V7b5 would be there if you were writing out of h/w dim. I pointed out that there is a b5 and #5, so why isn't it called a #4? This is where the perfect 5th idea came into play. I accept that as a good enough answer for me.
I meant to ask Fep what his thought's were on that subject.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 07-29-2011 at 05:40 PM.
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