Les Wise

**wizard3739** · 09-21-2010, 09:41 PM

Les Wise has a new utube website and has made some really good jazz guitar videos for your jazz guitar learning experience! For those of you who don't know about Les, let me just say he is the BEST jazz guitar teacher I have ever had since I started playing over 50 years ago. Take a few minutes to look at his new website YouTube - Kanaal van innerjazz and view some of his video instruction. Les has written several really great jazz guitar books and taught jazz guitar classes at M.I.T. (G.I.T.) for many years.

wiz

**RonD** · 09-21-2010, 10:18 PM

Thanks Wiz,
I remember looking at some of Les' stuff many years ago. I thought it was in the late 70's but, looking at him on the videos, it couldn't have been.
He looks so young.
Thanks for the link. I really like his concept for memorizing changes. Must watch the rest.
Cheers,
Ron

**nomelite** · 09-21-2010, 10:58 PM

Thank you so much for this update. I was wonderinbg what happened to this monster instructor !!! and this material is superb ! thanks again,

**ECross** · 09-22-2010, 12:20 AM

Nice thanks.

**derek** · 09-22-2010, 10:48 AM

Thanks for the heads up Wiz. I have a couple of Les' books, and really like the way he does things.

**FatJeff** · 09-22-2010, 12:03 PM

I got some really cool ideas from his ii7b5-V7b9 video: YouTube - Kanaal van innerjazz

**docbop** · 09-24-2010, 01:38 AM

I remember Les when I went to GIT back about 1980. Les was real good teacher and nice guy. His GIT materials pretty much became Bebop Bible and were organized by who's licks they were.

Seeing the AxeSack on his guitar in the video brings back memories. They were popular around GIT back then.

**santiboy** · 09-24-2010, 07:19 AM

I have his Jazz Lines book which is full of great ideas.

**richb2** · 10-01-2010, 05:45 AM

In his Jazz lines book he has lots of lines to go over the 2(m7)-5(7)-1(maj7). Very nice to have set pieces of jazz riff to string together occassionally. However, what does one do when you see a 2(m7)-5(7)-1(6) or a 2(m7)-5(7)-1(m), for example? Should I have a few of his 2-5 lines under my fingers, use those for the 2-5 part and then just arpeggiate on the 1(6) or the 1(m).

The answer may be just "do what sounds good". But I am hoping for some greater insight than just that.

**docbop** · 10-01-2010, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by richb2

In his Jazz lines book he has lots of lines to go over the 2(m7)-5(7)-1(maj7). Very nice to have set pieces of jazz riff to string together occassionally. However, what does one do when you see a 2(m7)-5(7)-1(6) or a 2(m7)-5(7)-1(m), for example? Should I have a few of his 2-5 lines under my fingers, use those for the 2-5 part and then just arpeggiate on the 1(6) or the 1(m).

The answer may be just "do what sounds good". But I am hoping for some greater insight than just that.

First you understand IIm7-V7-IMa7 is a Major key II-V-I and iimi7-5-V7alt is minor ii-V. Typically the iimi7-5-V7 goes to a imi7 but sometime you will see it go to a IMa7. Try to use roman numerals discuss chords much easier to read and the common way musicians language.

It's good to of practiced and absorbed some major and minor two-five's. I would say use them as a starting point for creating your own ideas. Listen to the lines and figure out the notes that you like and make your own lines using that sound. Remember this is stuff you work on in your practice so on the bandstand you let go and just let things happen.

**richb2** · 10-01-2010, 05:06 PM

>> IIm7-V7-IMa7 is a Major key II-V-I and iimi7-5-V7alt is minor ii-V

I am not sure that I understand your symbols. Two examples of how I read these are

Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

and

Dm7 G G7alt (I actually don't understand the mixing of Roman and digits)

Also what is the difference between the two? The major 2 5 resolves to a major chord and the minor 2 5 resolves to a dominant?

**randalljazz** · 10-01-2010, 07:25 PM

Roman numeral analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Roman numeral analysis

How Music Works : Roman Numeral Notation

**RonD** · 10-01-2010, 07:27 PM

Thanks randalljazz, I wondered how long it would take for someone to post...

**richb2** · 10-02-2010, 08:31 AM

I've spent some time looking over those three links above. I cannot find in(iimi7-5-V7alt) what the 5 means. I get the iimi7 and I think I get the V7alt. So this "could" be Dm7 - ? - G7alt ??? I think that your Roman Numeral Notation nomenclature is great, but shouldn't that be in another thread?

**RonD** · 10-02-2010, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by richb2

I've spent some time looking over those three links above. I cannot find in(iimi7-5-V7alt) what the 5 means. I get the iimi7 and I think I get the V7alt. So this "could" be Dm7 - ? - G7alt ??? I think that your Roman Numberal Notiation nomenclature is great, but shouldn't that be in another thread?

The - (minus sign) is often used to indicate a flat, or minor interval.
The iimi7-5 can be written as iim7b5, iimi7b5, ii-7-5, ii-7b5 or as posted. The lack of standardized notation can be confusing, to say the least. There's probably more, but these are the ones I've come across.
Hope this helps.

**richb2** · 10-02-2010, 08:49 AM

OK Good now that we cleared up the Roman Notation thing, what page(s) in Wise' Bebop Licks are you talking about having minor 2-5 licks? Are you talking about the IIm7-V7 ideas (one bar phrase) chapter starting on page 90? To me, those look just like the major 2-5-1's without the major at the end?

**keith** · 10-02-2010, 11:20 AM

I don't have the book for reference but understand that the second chord of a minor 2-5-1 progression is the half diminished chord iib7b5 not the iib7 ( or IIm7 as you've written it ) In addition the dominant chord V is an altered chord not just a V7. This is all because the tonic I scale is different between these 2 progressions one being major the other being minor and these progressions are based on the tonic scale. So if you're playing over the changes of a minor 2-5-1 ( iib7b5 - Valt - i ) but actually playing iib7- V7- i, you are expressing the major scale and not the minor scale of the tonic. So in your book look for iib7b5 - Valt progressions. Hope this helps.

**docbop** · 10-02-2010, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by richb2

I've spent some time looking over those three links above. I cannot find in(iimi7-5-V7alt) what the 5 means. I get the iimi7 and I think I get the V7alt. So this "could" be Dm7 - ? - G7alt ??? I think that your Roman Numeral Notation nomenclature is great, but shouldn't that be in another thread?

Try it this way iimi7b5, a half-diminished chord. G7alt is short hand or G7 altered another commonly used way to specify chords.

This is something I've never seen before "2(m7)-5(7)-1(maj7)" and very confusing.

In general people use roman numeral (RM) for to talking diatonic chords hence the II-V-I. Now in generally people know that means IImi7, V7, IMa7 in major, adding on the "7"'s is optional. The RM's can be treated like like a chord symbols and alterations can be added so V7b5 or V. Another common shorthand is using '-' for flat and '+' for sharp. Another you'll see on chord charts too is 'Alt' for altered dominant mean you can sharp or flat the 5's and 9's any way you want.

Then you get into regional and educational differences. Some use lower case RM for minor keys ii-v-i. Some argue that is proper and should be used, my view is you need to know it just in case you see it. Like seeing the small circle with a line thru it for half-diminished chords. I use myself on charts because writing out mi7-5 or mi7b5 is long to me. Same as 7-5+9 or 7b5#9 many with use 7 alt.

Now go back to those links and study them.

**richb2** · 10-02-2010, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by keith

I don't have the book for reference but understand that the second chord of a minor 2-5-1 progression is the half diminished chord iib7b5 not the iib7 ( or IIm7 as you've written it ) In addition the dominant chord V is an altered chord not just a V7. This is all because the tonic I scale is different between these 2 progressions one being major the other being minor and these progressions are based on the tonic scale. So if you're playing over the changes of a minor 2-5-1 ( iib7b5 - Valt - i ) but actually playing iib7- V7- i, you are expressing the major scale and not the minor scale of the tonic. So in your book look for iib7b5 - Valt progressions. Hope this helps.

The fact that the 2nd chord is a half diminished is probably the key to this discussion. However, in the Wise book the ONLY half dim chord I see in his examples in his Bebop book are for example 73 where he has Dm7b5 G7#5b9 Cmja7 as the chords. In this case the half dim is the 2 chord of the 2-5-1. I should expect to see the 5 be 1/2 dim? Right?

**keith** · 10-02-2010, 02:09 PM

No the V chord is dominant not half diminished so the V chord is the G7 but in minor harmony ( using the jazz minor scale ) the V chord also has a #5 and b9. These are alterations to the dominant ( V ) chord and in shorthand Valt.

You should get a reference on diatonic harmony such as Levine's " Jazz Theory" that is advertised on this site to review and you'll understand this concept. Major and minor scale harmony are different, sound different because they are based on different scales for the tonic but have similar characteristics such as the V chord derived from the tonic scale whether it be major or minor has a strong push back to the I. The V chord in each of them is a dominant 7 ( with alterations in the minor harmony ) so you can see how a songwriter could resolve it either to a major or minor tonic chord and that is the little trick or device they use to fool the ear and make it interesting. This explains your findings in your book.

You really need to learn about diatonic harmony starting with the major scale to understand these progressions. It may look difficult and appear like a waste of time but it will be well worth the effort. It will open up your instrument to you with so many possibilities once you understand how these chords are functioning. It will make learning and remembering these seemingly unrelated tunes so much easier. It will conceptualize the sounds you're already hearing which will help in many situations for example if you get lost during a jam. Instead of just learning licks from a book you'll know what the licks are doing and you'll have a much greater selection of sounds to use to create your own licks and express yourself which is, I think, what most of us ultimately want to do. Enough said. Dedicate the time and learn it!!

**FatJeff** · 10-02-2010, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by keith

You really need to learn about diatonic harmony starting with the major scale to understand these progressions. It may look difficult and appear like a waste of time but it will be well worth the effort. It will open up your instrument to you with so many possibilities once you understand how these chords are functioning. It will make learning and remembering these seemingly unrelated tunes so much easier. It will conceptualize the sounds you're already hearing which will help in many situations for example if you get lost during a jam. Instead of just learning licks from a book you'll know what the licks are doing and you'll have a much greater selection of sounds to use to create your own licks and express yourself which is, I think, what most of us ultimately want to do. Enough said. Dedicate the time and learn it!!

100% agreed. It will change the way you think of songs.

**wizard3739** · 10-02-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote from Keith: "You really need to learn about diatonic harmony starting with the major scale to understand these progressions. It may look difficult and appear like a waste of time but it will be well worth the effort. It will open up your instrument to you with so many possibilities once you understand how these chords are functioning. It will make learning and remembering these seemingly unrelated tunes so much easier. It will conceptualize the sounds you're already hearing which will help in many situations for example if you get lost during a jam. Instead of just learning licks from a book you'll know what the licks are doing and you'll have a much greater selection of sounds to use to create your own licks and express yourself which is, I think, what most of us ultimately want to do. Enough said. Dedicate the time and learn it!!"

I totally agree with this quote. Learning where the chords come from will open a whole sprectum of subjects for improvising for most musicians. Learning this concept may be the most important serious step taken in the learning process for jazz.

wiz

**richb2** · 10-02-2010, 08:02 PM

Well thanks guys. I ordered the book and am waiting for its arrival.

**richb2** · 10-03-2010, 04:35 AM

I just want to add my thoughts on learning a skill. I have been trying to convert from being a blues player (for about 40 years) to a jazz player over the past year or two. I visit this site and another one where I actually take video lessons. I have zeroed in on a few areas where I think I need to make some progress in the short term. For example, I need to learn to read. I know that. I need to be able to play "passibly" with other people (I mean how to solo over the changes).

My problem is that no matter which way I go, there is always someone telling me to go a different way, buy a different book, learn something different from that which I have zeroed in on. For example, I have been watching the Emily Remler DVD where she talks about improvising 20% of the time and the rest fo the time playing "stuff you have heard". To that end I bought the Bebop Licks books and decided that I was going to learn 5 standard 2-5-1 licks to mix into my soloing. I was also watching a Frank Vignola course where he teahces what he thinks are the 50 "must know" licks. The reason I am concentrating on 2-5-1's is that in jazz standards, the chords are flying by at high speed and I needed to have something to fall back on, between arpeggiating or playing melodic minor or playing dorian.

All I wanted to find out was where in the Wise book were some minor 2-5-1 licks (if there were any)? First I get this huge conversation about Roman notation, instead of an answer. Next I get a comment how I really must know the theory before I can get an answer as to what page Wise has committed the minor 2-5-1's to. So I ordered two books today, one Levine's jazz theory and another Chord Chemistry to try to learn smaller chord voicings to play when playing with others.

The point is that instead of getting to where I really needed to be, I am again being told that there is only "one way" to go foward and I need to study in that specific path. But everyone has a different opinion on what needs to be done first. And many people up here, while very knowledgable about guitar, don't know anything about how one gets from point A to point B and how to set goals and reach them.

Keith and Wizard, I don't think that it looks difficult or too hard or a waste of time. I have a lot of education (some fairly recent too) and on things which are at least as hard as jazz. That is not the point. The point is to prioritize things to learn.

Bottom line, I appreciate all of your advice, but do understand, I must prioritize things I need to learn. Otherwise I fear that I will never get anywhere. To me there are two ways to work. The first is to be reactive and as each new challenge shows up, drop what you are doing to address that new issue. The second is to plan what to work on, and try, as much as possible, to stick to the plan. Both methods have their pros and cons.

**docbop** · 10-03-2010, 07:52 AM

Rich2b you problem is you looking for a magic pill and there isn't one. Like Blues you need to take listen to some tunes and copy them. Then look at what they did and find a way to relate to it. Blues was easy dam near everything was I, IV, V and pentatonic scales. Now your in a territory with lots of chord type and colors and as many scale and other tools. Well you can't go fast it takes time.

I would say if you have a strong base in the Blues start with Jazz Blues so you can relate it back to your foundation. Lots of Jazz organ trios with guitarists and they tend to do Bluesy material. Get some Jimmy Smith with Wes Montgomery and listen. Jazz Blues has II-V's to setup you familiar I-IV Blues changes. So you can see how Blues grows up to be Jazz.

To learn a lot fast, learn a little slowly.