Les Wise

[richb2]

Thanks. I am not looking for a "magic pill" since I have been told up here that there is no magic pill. So why are a number of people saying "learning theory" IS a magic pill. I already know that is not true, but it sure can't hurt. Except that I will not have my 5 pre-made licks available next week at the jam.

BTW, on the blues thing, I already came to that conclusion. Fortunately, we are playing standards, and alot of those are already blues, so I am able to play to a high level already on some of the numbers. I'd like to get to play jazz like I do when I play blues. Sure I got some stock blues riffs (ala BB) but when I am feeeling comfortable, I am really not thinking scales, riffs, etc. I am mostly thinking about phrasing and playing melodically and with passion. I am a big Larry Carlton fan. Thanks for the advice. I see the library has Softly As A Summer Breeze by Jimmy Smith in and I will go pick it up.

[jayx123]

richb2 hi,
I think you should take one of the different approaches and give it a go. study it for a while and see if you are comfortable with it then after some time decide if to continue this or move to another approach, it will be very diffcault if you start to mix up and mish mash different approaches as a beginner

[fep]

Rich,

I agree with you that music theory is not a magic pill. But I think it does create some shortcuts to learning the instrument.

However, it's not a short road... I have a feeling you already play really well, especially the blues. And having to rethink your approach (i.e. incorporate new ideas) could have a short turn negative impact on your playing. In the long run it should be beneficial.

If I was you, I'd be looking how to incorporate what you already know from playing the blues into playing the jazz... that would make you a bluesy jazz player like Robben Ford or Larry Carlton.

You might want to check out two Don Mock videos that I think are excellent. They study jazz from a blues perspective....

Don Mock - The Blues From Rock to Jazz
Don Mock - Jazz Guitar Rhythm Chops

[guitron45]

Thanks Wiz,
I remember looking at some of Les' stuff many years ago. I thought it was in the late 70's but, looking at him on the videos, it couldn't have been.
He looks so young.
Thanks for the link. I really like his concept for memorizing changes. Must watch the rest.
Cheers,
Ron

Hi Ron, `nother Ron here, I saw him that long ago too. I think he's dying his hair and gotee to match his guitar sock. His hair wasn't that black when I saw him close up. He had just started using the sock when I saw him at a jazz seminar at UTEP in El Paso. It matters not of course.

He has very good ideas and is a good player/teacher. I have a video of his presentation somewhere but the quality is very bad. It was done by someone at the seminar. I'm very glad to have the link thanks to the poster of it.

GuitRon

[MarkRhodes]

I just chanced on two youtube vid of his tips on "learning tunes quickly." I found them useful. Others may too.

<<<Pt 2, chords

<<<<Pt 1, melody
His example piece (in both vids) is "Green Dolphin Street."

[JazzinNY]

Thanks for the links -- ironic, because he actually is More wise.

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks for the links -- ironic, because he actually is More wise.

Ha! I never heard anyone suggest learning tunes that way. I'm going to give it a try, and it might as well be with "Green Dolphin Street." (I'll download some youtube versions because it's not a tune I've heard much.)

[Jazz_175]

Hi Richb2,
are you still around?
How's going your learning path?

[bluewaterpig]

Just wanted to bump this thread after finding some great stuff. I'm almost addicted to expanding my jazz guitar literature library...I have Amazon orders shipped to my house at least once a week.

Anyway, I recently came across some of the REH titles that Les wrote...'Jazz Solos' and 'Bebop Licks' in particular. I had scrolled past these titles for years because I assumed they would be very elementary. I was presently surprised. The 'Jazz Solos' book in particular has some very solid stuff...widely understood concepts presented in a direct tone that end up producing fantastic ideas for improvising. I have to admit that I had never heard of Les before this...feels like finding a treasure chest.

If you aren't familiar with Les Wise, check him out. He runs his own site called The Deliberate Musician

[srlank]

I notice that Les Wise is offering an 8-week workshop on Truefire. It would be great to hear a review if anyone tries it out.

[MarkRhodes]

I notice that Les Wise is offering an 8-week workshop on Truefire. It would be great to hear a review if anyone tries it out.

I'd be interested in that too.

[JensL]

Ha! I never heard anyone suggest learning tunes that way. I'm going to give it a try, and it might as well be with "Green Dolphin Street." (I'll download some youtube versions because it's not a tune I've heard much.)

Not to bee too negative on Les Wise, I played etudes from him when I was starting to play jazz and they are great, but....

How much time is gained in not playing the melody in time. He says to do that for a few days, if you spend time playing a melody for a few days, you'll probably learn it by heart. Spend one hour playing the melody of a song, you'll probably learn it by heart. Only playing the notes and not the rhythm will make it more difficult to make any sense (try playing Broadway, One Note Samba or I want to be happy without rhythm)

He leaves out that it may be useful to understand/analyze the melody so in Green dolphin street the B part is twice the same but a minor 3rd apart, surely that is useful information?

Why is the order of activities: play it, hear it, feel it. Surely it is better to hear it (ie listen to it) try to play it, and I have no idea what he means by feel it.

I think he is quite right about not learning the melody all over the place at once though.

Sorry for my rant, but the melody video really comes across as misleading and unmusical to me, of course others may feel different but to me this needed to pointed out.

Jens

[MarkRhodes]

Sorry for my rant, but the melody video really comes across as misleading and unmusical to me, of course others may feel different but to me this needed to pointed out.

No need to apologize.
I wrote to Les about this and he made clear that he was talking about tunes one hasn't heard. Obviously, if you've heard a tune before, learning to play it will be easier. But many musicians are given charts for tunes they haven't heard and they need to be able to play those tunes soon. That's the situation he's thinking about.

[richb2]

It is going! Where do we know each other from? Are you the guitarist I met when I was in Rome? I see you are from Italy. These days I am playing lots and lots of bossa nova on a nylon string guitar. My playing is getting pretty heavily influenced by some famous bossa nova guitarist I am taking lessons with (when he is not on tour which is rarely). I still speak with Sheryl Bailey pretty often, but I am trying to synthesize my own sound which is part blues, part bebop, and part latin.

I do have a book by Les Wise and do still play a few of his bebop licks. Right now I am working on latin comping with Doug Munro on Truefire which is pretty good; I am about 1/2 way done. I am using many of the latin rythyms I am learning when arranging tunes for my band. I will take Les' class as soon as I am done with Doug Munro's./

[oeblio]

Thanks for posting the Les Wise videos. A few grains of rice among the internet chaff.

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks for posting the Les Wise videos. A few grains of rice among the internet chaff.

He seems to be a nice guy. Certainly been around awhile, several books out, lots of students. I wrote to him (-email) and he wrote back. I always appreciate that.

[wiscart1900]

there is another les video where he discusses talking about soloing over a minor ii-V-i but resolving to a major I.

He states that in F:

Gm7b5 - C7b9 - Fmajor


He initially starts with the soloing conepts of using the Bb melodic minor scale over both the Gm7b5 - C7b9. Then he discusses using seperate melodic minor scales i.e.

Gm7b5: Bb melodic minor
C7b9: Db melodic minor scale (altered)

1) Question: why can you use the Bb melodic minor scale over both the Gm7b5 - C7b9

C7b9: C Db E G Bb

Bb melodic minor scale: Bb -C - Db - Eb- F- G- A- Bb

I would think playing the E in C7b9 and the Eb from the Bb melodic minor scale would not sound good and would give a minor C7 feel instead of a dominant?

Am I wrong in this thinking?

2) He also discusses that he would use the harmonic minor scale over the ii-V if it resolved to a minor i chord or (minor major) but he uses the melodic minor scales when it resolves the a I major. Why the difference in scale choices depending on the I (i) chord resolution?

Thanks

[nosoyninja]

Hey guys! Just wanted to chime in here. Some one asked about his new true fire course. I don't have that course as it exists from truefire. But I have learned exactly the same material directly from Les in my private lessons with him. It was actually my first ever lesson with him a couple of years ago!

The course deals with developing finger independance when tackling arpeggios. Basically, all inversions for all 4 note major, minor and dominant arpeggios, starting with all left hand fingers.

We spent only the one class on the subject and quickly moved on to other material that builds on this foundation. I kept working on the fingerings for a couple of months until it sank in, and now, I don't even think about what fingering I use...

I think if you are starting out and need a systematic way to approach learning arpeggios, this is a great course to help you along.

K

[bluewaterpig]

1) Question: why can you use the Bb melodic minor scale over both the Gm7b5 - C7b9


C7b9: C Db E G Bb


Bb melodic minor scale: Bb -C - Db - Eb- F- G- A- Bb


I would think playing the E in C7b9 and the Eb from the Bb melodic minor scale would not sound good and would give a minor C7 feel instead of a dominant?

In terms of the Gm7b5, it's just a straight forward use of the modes of melodic minor. G is the 6th of Bb melodic minor, 6th mode of melodic minor is Locrian w/ a natural 2. A m7b5 chord typically gets treated with a Locrian pitch set and the natural 2nd scale degree is a slight variation that works well.

In terms of the C7, the Eb over a C7b9 is a prime example of something that is absolutely incorrect in terms of basic theory principles but is so frequently used in jazz. The Eb is theoretically treated as a #9 in most cases like this. The #9 comes from the altered scale. This is a great sounding tension when treated correctly, but it's a sound you need to be familiar with first.

In terms of modes, a Bb melodic minor scale over a C7b9 is accessing the second mode of the melodic minor scale, which is Dorian b9. It may seem very wrong in theory, but Dorian b9 is a close relative of the altered scale, just a few notes differentiating the two.

2) He also discusses that he would use the harmonic minor scale over the ii-V if it resolved to a minor i chord or (minor major) but he uses the melodic minor scales when it resolves the a I major. Why the difference in scale choices depending on the I (i) chord resolution?

This is basically just a question of personal taste, but there are reasons why melodic minor works particularly well. Both scales would certainly work, but I would agree that the melodic minor (or jazz minor) is a more tasteful choice with more options because it's only one note away from being a major scale, which is what you're resolving to when you end up on a major I. When you have this kind of transition you can really achieve a nice effect by playing around with the common tones present in both scales, or by playing with the one note that changes between both scales. A great device to use in this case is to create a motif and play it over both changes...especially if you use a motif that contains the one note that changes between scales.