Guitar Improvisation Frustration

[coluccjj]

Hi, just discovered this great forum and hoping for some help. I am trying to learn to improvise but just dont get it despite hours of practice and its frustrating the hell out of me. For example Ive learned major scales over Satin Doll but just cant seem to get any meaningful phrasing. I feel all I am doing is playing random notes. I feel there must be a method of having target notes and filling in between them but dont know where to start. Has anyone been where I am?

[cosmic gumbo]

Variations on the melody is a good place to start with improv. No fancy scales, just playing around with the melody. Some good players get a lot of mileage out of it.

[jeffstocksmusic]

I feel there must be a method of having target notes and filling in between them but dont know where to start.

There are MANY methods. Here are a few to try.

The 3rd and 7ths of the each chord are commonly called 'guide tones'. To me, they are the meat of the chord. You can start by just playing the guide tones w/ simple embellishment, perhaps a scale tone above or below. It won't set you on fire, but you will be playing phrases that are musical-sounding. It will also help you really hear the harmonic movement of the changes. You can progress from there w/ more complex embellishment.

A practical example would be to play the 7th of the first chord (C from the Dmin7), resolving to the 3rd of the 2nd chord (B from the G7). This would be the simplest type of guide tone melody.

You could do the same w/ the 3rd of the Dmi7 chord (F) moving scalar to the 3rd of the G7 (B).

Another method would be what Mr. Gumbo suggested. Simply play the melody and embellish that. Use space, slurs, varied rhythms, etc to create interest.

Another method would be to arpeggiate each chord, looking to ways of voice leading through them as the chords change.

Another method would be to transcribe a few phrases from the masters and play them as part of your own. You can expand on them as you get more comfortable.

Another method is to loop the changes and sing lines over them. If you can, record yourself singing and transcribe it. If you are like me (and most player), you won't sing anything too out. It will likely be very nice, melodic lines.

Hope this helps a bit.

[backliner]

Scales and some arpeggios don't really sound like musical statements so much as exercises. Leaving some notes out and changing the direction every couple-three notes will help. Major scale can sound pretty pedestrian. Try diminished.

[coluccjj]

Thanks for taking the time to respond and suggest. Beginning to feel its just not in me. Will try these and see how I go.

[coluccjj]

Thanks. At this stage dont mind sounding pedestrian as long as its correct. If I know what I am doing I can then build on it.

[His Hollowness]

Hi, just discovered this great forum and hoping for some help. I am trying to learn to improvise but just dont get it despite hours of practice and its frustrating the hell out of me. For example Ive learned major scales over Satin Doll but just cant seem to get any meaningful phrasing. I feel all I am doing is playing random notes. I feel there must be a method of having target notes and filling in between them but dont know where to start. Has anyone been where I am?

Well, I'm a newbie to jazz guitar and my feeling is that learning it without a teacher is really difficult. If you haven't already, check out Jimmy Bruno's online institute. Quite a few of the forumites here, including myself, are members.
Incidentally, Satin doll's often the first tune that he gets his student to work on.

[whiskywheels]

You need to be able to hear what you're going to play in your head, otherwise, no matter how many scales you know, you'll just be playing random notes and phrases. It's possible to learn phrases, riffs, arpeggios or whatever, but unless you hear where you want it to go in your head, you'll just be disappointed I think. In time, when you get familiar with scales, you'll be able to translate what you hear in your head to the fingers.
One way of finding out if you have any potential to improvise is to sing, hum or whistle along with a track. How does it sound? If you like what you hear, find out what notes you're using and play them on the guitar.

[Susan Palmer]

Another idea to try: Focus on just one or two chords at a time, not the whole tune. Play all the chord tones in open position, up and down each string and then combine 2 strings at a time, etc.

I think a person could spend a year just doing that and it would be time well spent. What seems to happen is that when you learn one or two chords (and the notes on the neck) really, really well, other chords will come much faster. I used to feel that exercising this way was taking way too much time, but that slow practice is where the deep connections are made. It's hard not to freak out and think to yourself, "But I should know this stuff already!" Just know that we all feel that way from time to time and our job is to chill out and focus on one thing at a time.

[C.A.JO.]

First of all, I've been in the same situation as you some years back. Don't give up, it's actually natural to experience this feeling you have.

Now to my points:

I would say that 90% of most jazz improvisation is build from these "devices":

- scales (the major scale, the melodic minor scale, and the harmonic minor scale. There are others but these are the most used. Learn them in all keys, positions.)
- arpeggios (when learning scales, learn all the triads and diatonic arps in all positions and fingerings. Get to know the chord-tones within the scales.)
- guide tones (use the 3rd and 7th notes of the chords you're playing over. this will help your solos spelling out the changes instead of just random scale notes.)
- chromatics (not much jazz is straight ahead scales... investigate chromatics. For instance from the 7th to the 5th, 5th to the 3rd, 3rd to the Root).

Once I knew a bunch of scales and arpeggios, but I still didn't sound "jazzy". My teacher at that time told me to do this:

1. Listen to jazz daily! (I started carrying around my ipod loaded with greatest records. I still carry it around).

2. Transcribe solos (at least 30).

Knowing the above mentioned devices wont do you much good unless you're familiar with the jazz langauge, and know how to play what you hear.

Listening and transcribing is, IMO, the real "secret" if there is such one.

Transcribing solos and tunes is the "perfect" practice in many ways:

- you train your ears.
- you learn new licks (by lifting off favorite phrases from the solo)
- you get to know the tunes, solos, etc. more intimately (learn language)
- you build your technique (at least if the solo is demanding enough for you)
- you practice music notation (if you write it down).
- it's the best way to learn phrasing and articulation.

Learning the scales, arpeggios, guide tones and chromatics are purely a craftmanship. It's mechanical. You can learn all this within 1-2 years (assuming you have the basics down). But's it's first when you learn how to connect you inner ear to your fingers, that you experience real improvisation. And to sound "jazz" you must learn the language. Transcribing and listening can show you this. Maybe the first solos are hard to learn, it's a lot of trial and error, rewinding, looping, pausing, etc. But it WILL get easier... Like many others my first transcription was Miles Davis' solo on "So What".

Once your ear gets better, you stop to just play scales and arps, because you start to hear bits and pieces from all the solos you've transcribed. Along with what the other musicians play, you "suddenly" play what you hear. Sometimes you don't get the exact phrase you heard, but the sound of the actual new phrase you played instead leads you into another direction, and so on. New licks and melodies of your own start to emerge, and with experience you've developed your own voice.

Playing what you hear is the goal of improvisation, IMO. I'm not completely "there" yet myself, but I don't think one will get "there" 100%.

[lkmuller]

Transcribe, transcribe, transcribe.

[nomelite]

excellent advices here guys. I'm new playing jazz, but I love it and I have ideas in my head, so what I do is decipher the lines that I have in my head in different places in the fretboard, so I'd also advise to hear a lot of jazz, to get its feeling. Bert Ligon said something wise:'jazz is an aural tradition. The music is passed from one teacher to a student, from one generation to the next, not from written books, but from the tradition of personal interaction, listening and imitation.'

[coluccjj]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond. Most appreciative of the extensive advice and will be taking some time to digest it all. regards , John

[Silence]

+1 on improvising around the melody. I was having a hard time with the tune "out of nowhere" some time ago and my instructor suggested trying to embellish the melody.

I use that way a lot when first learning tunes because there's really no limit to how much you can embellish the melody. It certainly made a difference in my playing.

[musicjohnny]

First of all, I've been in the same situation as you some years back. Don't give up, it's actually natural to experience this feeling you have.

Now to my points:

I would say that 90% of most jazz improvisation is build from these "devices":

- scales (the major scale, the melodic minor scale, and the harmonic minor scale. There are others but these are the most used. Learn them in all keys, positions.)
- arpeggios (when learning scales, learn all the triads and diatonic arps in all positions and fingerings. Get to know the chord-tones within the scales.)
- guide tones (use the 3rd and 7th notes of the chords you're playing over. this will help your solos spelling out the changes instead of just random scale notes.)
- chromatics (not much jazz is straight ahead scales... investigate chromatics. For instance from the 7th to the 5th, 5th to the 3rd, 3rd to the Root).

Once I knew a bunch of scales and arpeggios, but I still didn't sound "jazzy". My teacher at that time told me to do this:

1. Listen to jazz daily! (I started carrying around my ipod loaded with greatest records. I still carry it around).

2. Transcribe solos (at least 30).

Knowing the above mentioned devices wont do you much good unless you're familiar with the jazz langauge, and know how to play what you hear.

Listening and transcribing is, IMO, the real "secret" if there is such one.

Transcribing solos and tunes is the "perfect" practice in many ways:

- you train your ears.
- you learn new licks (by lifting off favorite phrases from the solo)
- you get to know the tunes, solos, etc. more intimately (learn language)
- you build your technique (at least if the solo is demanding enough for you)
- you practice music notation (if you write it down).
- it's the best way to learn phrasing and articulation.

Learning the scales, arpeggios, guide tones and chromatics are purely a craftmanship. It's mechanical. You can learn all this within 1-2 years (assuming you have the basics down). But's it's first when you learn how to connect you inner ear to your fingers, that you experience real improvisation. And to sound "jazz" you must learn the language. Transcribing and listening can show you this. Maybe the first solos are hard to learn, it's a lot of trial and error, rewinding, looping, pausing, etc. But it WILL get easier... Like many others my first transcription was Miles Davis' solo on "So What".

Once your ear gets better, you stop to just play scales and arps, because you start to hear bits and pieces from all the solos you've transcribed. Along with what the other musicians play, you "suddenly" play what you hear. Sometimes you don't get the exact phrase you heard, but the sound of the actual new phrase you played instead leads you into another direction, and so on. New licks and melodies of your own start to emerge, and with experience you've developed your own voice.

Playing what you hear is the goal of improvisation, IMO. I'm not completely "there" yet myself, but I don't think one will get "there" 100%.

This post is a gem, thanks bud.

[Drumbler]

Here's a way.

Take the first 3 or 4 bars of your song and hum a melody over those bars.

Then play what you hummed.

Write it down.

Take the next 4 bars and do the same.

Do the next 4 bars...etc.

Finish the whole chorus.

Practice this improvisation and memorize it. Improvise using this as a template.

[wynn]

Probably all been said already, but the most important thing is to listen and learn from great players, see as much live jazz as you can, as much good music as you can, what are they trying to say, why are they doing it, what's the emotion, the mood.

Transcribe, copy, learn loads of tunes, (Parker tunes are practically solos in themself) Improvisiation is instant composition based on patterns and understanding developed through music. Notes are just the alphabet, scales the words, but an author couldn't write great works just studying words.

I try to sing along with myself when I improvise, this promotes phrasing and awareness and (hopefully) stops me running off at the mouth with endless scale lines.

To me the bottom line is that improvisation isn't technical, there are no rules that will make youa good improvisor, a knowledge of theory and harmony is definitely very important, but it's music you are trying to create and that comes from music not theory.

Sorry if that was a bit preachy.

Wynn

[abdke99]

welcome to frustrated club hehehe,well sometimes it is and somethimes one feel great when hard work pays of

[pierre richard]

find written transcriptions online (they are out there)....

download in pdf file...

print...

see what the artist is playing over each chord..his improvisation...

play only one measure at a time...play in another position...a different octave...

now play in another key...play only quarter notes first..then eights...then sixteenths...this would be a technique builder in itself..

now play the first two bars...a two bar phrase...follow the above guide..

now look and see what the artist is playing that you could not think of right away...but as you look closer you will see ...

time on the instrument...pierre

[Meggy]

Thanks for taking the time to respond and suggest. Beginning to feel its just not in me. Will try these and see how I go.

I used to feel a bit like this at one point. It's now about 20 years later (I took a few wrong turns... ) and I find the scales are making a whole lot more sense these days. They really can be used effectively - view them more as available pools of notes in various areas of the fretboard. Derive arpeggios from them also, as these help to give your improvising harmonic strength. Plus you can also use chromatic approach and passing tones (i.e. adding non-scale notes) to good effect for jazz phrases.

No one said jazz improv is easy, but I think I could have saved myself quite a lot of time if I had invested in a few lessons from a good jazz guitarist. There is nothing like being shown how to make it work right in front of you. Worth considering maybe?

[Aristotle]

All good answers. I'll try a different spin.

First, I don't think you'll ever stop feeing "frustrated." There will always be more in your heart, mind and soul than you can get out. And even when you get it out, it may not come across as well

Second, one must learn and "know" music. Yes, that sounds like a "duh" statement, but make believe Yoda said it. Just as a 9th grader might know words and sentences, and can't write a book; knowledge of scales, arpeggios and "devices" doesn't mean you can start creating good melodies, bass lines, harmonies and chord statements. Study composition. More important than a "guitar teacher" for improv.

Last, I don't get along well with the A section of Satin Doll. I suggest starting with tunes that cycle fourths. Fly Me to the Moon, All The Things You Are. And start studying Bach, like the Two-Part Inventions and for shorter phrases the Bouree's, both of which also tend to cycle fourths. Try to put them together. Use the Bach motifs as the basis of melodies over the standard's changes.

[coluccjj]

A big thank you to all who took the time and effort to respond. When I started I didnt realise that this is a lifetime journey and that patience and perseverance is key. Will keep plugging away with your suggestions. John

[Meggy]

Keep posting here too when you feel the need! I find it is a great source of ideas and encouragement, especially when I hit a bit of a stumbling block, or am a little discouraged!

[coluccjj]

Thanks everyone. Did my first big solo effort tonight in front of an audience....a whole 16 bars and completely stuffed it up. Luckily with a couple of years experience now I dont consider it the huge embarassment I thougth it would be. Its actually made me more determined to conquer this problem.

[Meggy]

Thanks everyone. Did my first big solo effort tonight in front of an audience....a whole 16 bars and completely stuffed it up. Luckily with a couple of years experience now I dont consider it the huge embarassment I thougth it would be. Its actually made me more determined to conquer this problem.

I'm sure more than a few of us can relate to this experience too (I definitely can). Playing in front of an actual audience does feel somewhat different, and nerves can get to you. But probably it wasn't quite as bad as you think (I find I am always more aware of my own shortcomings than the audience seems to be - I hope this is true anyway ). Plus I think it is to be expected with jazz and improvised music that "mistakes"/"bum notes" - whatever you want to call them, will happen. The thing is to try and say something real and meaningful in your solo, however you achieve this. Also, the more live playing you do, the more comfortable you become, and the better you get at handling it! As has already been said, this stuff isn't easy, but for myself, having the nerve (stupidity? ) to improvise on the spot with an audience watching is something that makes me feel truely alive (he said pretentiously...). Maybe it's my version of base-jumping or something. But please keep going!