Guitar Improvisation Frustration

[Patrick Brown]

coluccjj, never be 'too' embarrassed about that kind of stuff. Sometimes, when I do a take, recording,,often a first take,,I think,,Yuck!!,,but I let it alone, cuz I know experience has taught me that when I come back the next day and listen to it,,,it's perfect, and I'm glad I didn't ditch it. As long as you 'play it like you mean it', that can have a strong psychological effect on the listeners. If you're too tentative,,it'll show too. Jack Zucker's(author of Sheets of Sound) motto:
'There are no wrong notes' Well, to me, some sound a bit more uncomfy than others, but that's why they're called 'passing tones.'

[Reg]

You eventually get to a level of playing when a lousy performance is still good, and you get over knocking yourself around because you realize that. Obviously it takes time to get to that level, but all "musicians" who put in the time do... Reg

[jayx123]

I think that singing while you are improvising is a great way to avoid automatic playing. when im improvising and I feel that im on an auto pilot i start to sing and it gets much better.

when you start to do so your singing will probably not hit the notes you are playing but rythmecally it will affect your lines. as you you this you will eventually be able to sing exactly what you are playing

hopes this helps

[Reg]

Singing what you play is great... that's what your trying to do... play what you hear...yada yada... a small note, it really drives the rest of the player crazy when rhythm section and string players sing... or wind instruments players make noise between phrases... sing in your head, really... it works just as well... And your point about your rhythmic feel or since of time... from singing, great point, much better than tapping. I'm only bring this up because, what you practice eventually becomes what and how you play.
At least be aware of your singing etc, if it really helps, do what ya gotta do, but be ready for some comments... best Reg

[jayx123]

Singing what you play is great... that's what your trying to do... play what you hear...yada yada... a small note, it really drives the rest of the player crazy when rhythm section and string players sing... or wind instruments players make noise between phrases... sing in your head, really... it works just as well... And your point about your rhythmic feel or since of time... from singing, great point, much better than tapping. I'm only bring this up because, what you practice eventually becomes what and how you play.
At least be aware of your singing etc, if it really helps, do what ya gotta do, but be ready for some comments... best Reg

you don't have to shout, you can sing softly now one will notice.

[Reg]

you don't have to shout, you can sing softly now one will notice.

Hey... Like softly as in a morning sunrise... I like that. Sorry... I get right to the point sometimes and.... well don't ever take what I say as personal, it's not meant to be. I always sing what I play, not just solos, but never out loud, the great part about keeping the vocals in your head... you can sing more than one note... Best Reg

[jayx123]

well don't ever take what I say as personal, it's not meant to be.

Reg, none taken
All I meant to say is that you can sing softly when playing with other folks so you don't irritate them (if they are irritated by your singing)

[bigbrew]

A few thoughts:

Try playing thirds. Practice each scale that is associated with the chords in the tune by stepping through the thirds (i.e., 1,3,5 - 2,4,6 - 3-5,7 - etc.). I've found it sounds very musical when you get comfortable throwing in these triads at will.

Work on the rhythm as much as the notes themselves. The right notes will sound wrong if they don't swing.

Also - Satin Doll was always tough for me. That said, I would recommend listening to Wes Montgomery's version. His approach is a little idiosyncratic, but it really swings - and it's very musical. He's really "saying" something on this tune.

[Reg]

Since were handing out personal favorites... What I do at most of my gigs when the tune is one of fifty million, is play octaves. It's pretty hard to sound good when you play octaves unless your lines really sing, lousy notes stick out, (you can't keep playing passing or approach notes). And it's pretty easy to hear all the notes of your phrase. When I'm taking a little more of an energetic solo, not the one where everyone smiles and says; "how lovely". Sometimes I play connect the beautiful notes. Music has a harmonic rhythm, which the melody and your solos have to find some sort of balance with. This balance, or method of expressing yourself can employ the usual suspects... Rhythmic, melodic and harmonic organizational techniques...(express yourself). So when you play connect the beautiful notes,( and you need to be aware of what those beautiful notes are, are they your choice, or are you aware of what style and where your playing, someone else). Lets skip the politics, your playing a Brazilian samba, a nice way to play beautiful notes, ( a beautiful note can be a single note... or a collection of notes phrased as to be heard as one), one method is to find a pedal phrase, a short rhythmic phrase, not to many notes with characteristic montuno like feel. You may need to change some notes each time you play the phrase, depending on changes. Now comes the fun part... you get to connect your pedal phrase with what ever skills you have mastered. Usually you'll be filling on the weak side, so you'll have plenty of freedom to express yourself. This would fall into one of the many ways to use call and answer, a method of musical "express yourself"... This may sound somewhat silly, but the methodology I just went through is what you do when you improvise, it's not divine intervention... and luck only works about one out of ten times. There many different approaches... they all work to a degree, and the better the player the better the end result. But even a beginner can approach soloing knowledgeable and have some control of what their playing. The transcribing thing is one of the many required musician skills, and analysis of those transcriptions, is a method of seeing how others approach improvisation, as long as your able to understand what there doing... Most have a problem... and none of that time spent on transcriptions transcends your actual playing skills. And really... you need to play jazz live, even just with your friends, practice real improvisation... not memorization. It doesn't need to be dazzling... I think I'll start a new thread full of our favorite methods of organizing improvisation, they tend to be very similar to composition, with a set form... Best Reg

[jazzninja]

I would say you really should work on playing the blues well before you even attempt jazz. Blues will help teach you phrasing, and yes, play what you sing. Once you're comfortable playing something interesting over a blues, move on to something with more changes in it.
Scott Hendersons "Jazz rock mastery" dvd really does give a great approach to playing interesting solos.
Good luck.

[Reg]

I like young or new players going through the blues also, for the same reasons and personally because you learn how to groove. If you can't make a simple or complex blues tune happen... good luck on jazz tunes. That's an interesting quote, "Patience and persistence will always achieve more than talent". I tend to believe you need talent to a certain level, the more the better, and simply call the patience and persistence... "Moral Motivation" and only include the moral point, for perspective. Looks like the previous post was your first...very nice, this is a great hang, tons of knowledge and very professional teachers, looking forward to your posts... Best Reg

[jazzninja]

Hey Reg, thank you for your welcome. Yes indeed, a level of talent is required, but I personally believe that patience and persistance are more important in becoming a great musician.
Its good to be here and I'll pop in when I can. Hopefully I can add something useful.
Cheers

[musicjohnny]

Hey Reg, thank you for your welcome. Yes indeed, a level of talent is required, but I personally believe that patience and persistance are more important in becoming a great musician.
Its good to be here and I'll pop in when I can. Hopefully I can add something useful.
Cheers

Jazzninja, did you get those quotes from a book called Zen Guitar?

I have read the book through a few times and I recall those being in there, lemme know.

[jazzninja]

Jazzninja, did you get those quotes from a book called Zen Guitar?

I have read the book through a few times and I recall those being in there, lemme know.

Hey, I've never heard of that book, I'll look it up, thanks.
Both of them come from martial artists! The first quote is paraphrased from Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura, he actually said patience and persistance can beat talent, but obviously it doesn't really apply to guitar (well, shouldn't!). Second is from Tony Blauer (him of the spear system). I find martial arts has a lot of wisdom that applies to playing an instrument, and its good to get some physical exercise to work of all that free gig beer!

[musicalbodger]

I'm sure the sentiment (talent is worthless without determination and perseverance — plus it's variations quoted above) is to be found in many places simply because it is a universal truth. I've read Zen Guitar and doesn't the author himself pull quotes from many sources?

Reg, whilst you're complimenting others on their posts, may I return the compliment to you. Your posts are always to the point, intelligent, packed with insights and oozing knowledge so obviously gained from experience. Thanks for the time you take to pass this on to, what has recently become, a young, inexperienced and enthusiastic crowd now frequenting this forum.

Bodge

ps awaiting your new thread with interest

pps

And really... you need to play jazz live, even just with your friends, practice real improvisation... not memorization.

Nothing improves your playing faster or in more depth.

[cisco kid]

This is very good advice. George Benson on his '70s jazz/pop recordings was known to sing/hum his lines out loud in some of his recordings. Herb Ellis would do so live and practicing I've heard.
But the one thing is (and I brought this up before as others) it helps to practice ear training and relate it to the guitar or in general. Yes, the advice given for guitarist who have trouble with improvising is great. But ear training a program can help it's just a matter of sticking with it...like bodybuilding or weight lost program a lot people usually stop. I know I've been there...it takes discipline but helps.
Any advice on learning how to "phrase" on guitar. Like some people are born to be great songwriters just as their great guitarists who play great phrases on guitar...mini songs telling a story communicating with the listener (hooks, riffs, licks etc.) but it can be learned not just playing scales and arpeggios and the like but communicating to the listener. It's in the phrasing what I've know, but what advice? Some of it's there in the improvisation advice it sounds.
Thanks

[jazzninja]

Any advice on learning how to "phrase" on guitar. Like some people are born to be great songwriters just as their great guitarists who play great phrases on guitar...mini songs telling a story communicating with the listener (hooks, riffs, licks etc.) but it can be learned not just playing scales and arpeggios and the like but communicating to the listener. It's in the phrasing what I've know, but what advice? Some of it's there in the improvisation advice it sounds.
Thanks

I would do this:
0)Start with the blues. This is vital if you want to play interesting and individual solos.
1)Find musicians who you really like, who's music really speaks to you and learn their solos, not necessarily to write out or play all the way through(great to do if you have the time), but so you can sing them note for note with the correct phrasing. Let their music really get into your bones.
2) Practice your scales daily using melodic patterns(eg. 1232,2343,3454 etc), arpeggioes (every chord in the scale can be played in each position)and intervals(ie up and down in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths etc). These are your tools and will free your fingers up so you can express yourself more clearly.
3)Record yourself playing and listen back. Don't judge yourself harshly though. Imagine its your best mate playing and you want to give him/her positive feedback.
4) Buy Scott Hendersons Jazz Rock Mastery. The melodic phrasing section deals with this.
5) Work on playing what you hear in your head. Don't just play patterns that fall easily under your hands.
6) Don't worry too much about how the practice will become phrases. The oft used comparison of music and language applies here. As humans our brains are set up for communication, so what you are effectively learning is how to speak using a guitar instead of your mouth. If you practice "speaking" with your guitar your brain will naturally process your thoughts that way (well, it does for me!). Just let it happen.

To start with, try only using one note over a blues and use rhythm to make it interesting.
Meditation helps too

[musicalbodger]

Any advice on learning how to "phrase" on guitar. Like some people are born to be great songwriters just as their great guitarists who play great phrases on guitar...mini songs telling a story communicating with the listener (hooks, riffs, licks etc.) but it can be learned not just playing scales and arpeggios and the like but communicating to the listener. It's in the phrasing what I've know, but what advice? Some of it's there in the improvisation advice it sounds.
Thanks

Hi James, it's all about listening, listening, listening. Listen to the greats all the time and you will absorb the phrasing. Then try singing the more simple solos along with them and it will start to become natural to you. I've been listening to jazz for 40 years, and the phrasing is so much in my soul now that even if I'm playing with a rock band, my phrasing is jazz.

Don't be fooled, there are very few "born anythings" in this world, those who make it look easy and natural, do it through hard work and determination. Some are lucky enough to be brought up by parents who give them the basic tools to begin with (musical parents, etc.) but talent is nothing without the hard graft.

And as Jazzninja says — meditation helps. Kenny Werner's book "Effortless Mastery" can help you unblock the negative feelings .

[cisco kid]

Thanks, Jazzninja and Musicalbodger, for your sound advice. As in everything else some people have an edge than others, but one can improve if one is willing with help.
I was asked by a guitar teacher to improvise a solo early on and there was a lot to be desired from the wannabe solo I attempted. But my teacher says that's one of the big things to learn is how to express oneself on the guitar, but it can be developed.
Not everyone spends time on phrasing...working on that is. Phrasing properly helps in communicating to the listener and brings joy in improvising/playing the guitar creatively. Don't give up he said.
Thanks, again

[jazzninja]

Thanks, and good luck

[Jaffey]

Try John Abercrombie's approach: start with intervals (3rds, 4ths, 6ths) and let the interval concept play out over the changes. Also use triads in combination with intervals. I would put the whole scale thing into perspective. Look at a scale as a group of words, and a musical idea taken from that scale as one word. The scale just helpe you understand the neck. Consider the last time you ever heard Scofield play a scale. He knows the scale but just picks a few notes from it to play over the chord. Try any standard, slowly paced, and use just intervals first time through. Don't even worry about guide tones. Just play intervals. Then triads only. Then combime the two. Eventually add note clusters, and so on. I know it sounds like it, but most jazz guitar players don't play "scales." DiMeola - yes, McGlaughlin - yes. But most just use parts of the scale. Hope this helps.

[Sondericker]

I've started to make some progress after years of false starts and I'd like to share how I did it.

Forget memorizing scale patterns for each chord. Try instead to see the chord tones for each chord and know the interval of the notes in the scale of the chord being played. When you're soloing, "see" the chord tones. After some practice you see how they relate to the next chord and its tones.

Make a recording of about 10 minutes of you playing a simple ii-7 V7 Imaj7 chords slowly. Start out by playing the chord arpeggios until you're familiar. Don't just learn the forms, learn what the intervals are.

Then start to play something incredibly simple using those chord tones. Start to fill in a bit with 6th, 4ths etc. You know where they are if you know the chord tones.

The single biggest breakthrough I learned was not to play the tonic of the chord much at all. I used to start and end every phrase on the tonic of the chord and I was so frustrated. I had no idea what i was doing. I now avoid the tonic like the plague (unless I'm polishing off a good long phrase, or in passing) and I've found the ability to actually "say something" in my improvisation.

You see, when I used to resolve every phrase it always left nowhere to go, no flow into the next chord, no sense of traveling somewhere and returning at the end of the progression. No linkage or homogeny.

So I say learn to see the chord tones, go slowly, play simply and let the bass player play the tonic.

Good luck!

[coluccjj]

Thanks Jaffey, I'm actually going through Jamey Aebersolds book How To Play Jazz and Improvise but am taking it very slowly.Not much progress yet but I am hopeful.

[Stian41]

Hi everyone,

This is my first time writing on this forum. I'm relatively new to jazz guitar, but I'm very determined, and I practice a lot.

I have the same problem as many others describe here. I'm "raised" within rock, blues and metal (don't know why, but I'm embarrased), and when I'm trying to improvise it all sounds the same, it's all licks that are "stuck in my fingers", guess you know what I mean.

Well, I'm very determined to learn jazz guitar, and actually I don't play anything else these days. I don't have a guitar teacher at the moment, which doesn't make it easier, I guess.

It's really frustrating to back to "level 1".

However, what I really wanted to say here (even if it took some time getting to the point) is that I really appreciate all the tips and advices given on this thread. I think it will be really helpful!

-Stian
"(Temporary) Jazz guitar newbie"

[woyvel]

I sometimes practice improv in the car by whistling. You can do that or sing or hum. My steering wheel doesn't complain at all.