The Jimmy Raney Book Study Group

[RaneyJR]

I only found one version of Jimmy Raney playing ATTYA on Youtube, on Wisteria. Great album, but I was surprised to only find one take. Sure there are others.

My strongest recollection is the blistering ATTYA solo he played in Attila's clinic in Vermont in 1981. At that point I was just a rank beginner on piano so I couldn't bear to listen to it. But the impact of the solo was mind blowing. So much that Attila blurted out (more or less) "who the fuck am I? This is Charlie Parker on the guitar"

[Mick-7]

From your symbols above I assume the ^ is Major as in Fmaj7. Who's saying that? I'm saying F- ^7.

Sorry for the confusion, I was thinking of a different tune.... but like Ralph Patt and Lawson, I've thought of the Fm7 as a VIm7 chord (i.e., VI-II-V-I), but F-^7 is a good chord to end the tune on.

[RaneyJR]

Sorry for the confusion, I was thinking of a different tune.... .

ok

. but like Ralph Patt and Lawson, I've thought of the Fm7 as a VIm7 chord (i.e., VI-II-V-I), but F-^7 is a good chord to end the tune on.

Sure it's good to have an understanding to the harmonic structure of the basic template (VI II V I). I'm just suggesting that are different options for notes, chords and ways to navigate through this framework.

Here, I am selling the ^6 and ^7 notes on both F- and Bb-. Partially through sequence and strong rhythm, I'm also bypassing Ab.
I'm also foreshadowing a bit of Jimmy's 3/4 against 4/4 lines that happen later in the book.



It's interesting to listen to the original from the show from 1939 on Youtube. The recording is Bb aka G-. But it gets there by starting in F moving to Bb then G-. So the parallel here would be Eb Ab and F-. The harmonic style of the D7 preparation before the main melody, makes it not so clear whether the singer will arrive on G major or G- . Kern's era is a little earlier so there is a flair for the operatic. So this influences my perception of the harmony a little.

[PickingMyEars]

I recognized that augmented triad + the octave melodic fragment. You can resolve that to a color tone of the minor (9, 11, 13) like you did here. That little sound goes a long way in establishing motion.

The opening phrase with the descending C E Ab C (C7) to D (Fm6).

Trying to work that into my minor key playing. Really brings out the color of the minor you are tonicizing. That said, it's the rhythm that sells the harmonic idea and turns it all into a confident melody. Augmented and whole tone sounds seem like they would be fun to rhythmically displace.

Hope that makes sense.

[RaneyJR]

rhythm ... sells

yep

[CliffR]

Of course ATTYA is (likely) the most harmonically migratory standard in the tin pan alley repertoire... so there is that. The tune is constantly fighting you to not sound mechanical

When I was taking lessons from Christian Miller, he said the tune's nickname was 'All The Chords There Are'. Here's another attempt at it, this time using the rhythm of figure 2-6. For some reason, this took me over an hour to get under my fingers, and even then I flub the last of the three attempts here. Things I wasn't sure about: does the change in direction on the last group of 5 harm the accenting of the groupings? And should I maybe have put the Gb on the quarter note of the third beat of the bar to emphasise it?

[PickingMyEars]

I need to get the figures from Chapter 2 more under my fingers.

Figuring out the tension and release of lines and phrases is multifaceted. No longer are the notes and harmonies themselves the only areas of concern. The rhythm also has to traverse that journey of tension and release. The rhythm puts all the other elements of line building together. Easier to hear all that in the longer fig. 2-15. Damn, do I need to be reminded how good Jimmy Raney's lines sound?

My teacher also reminded me that the tune is called "All the Things You Are" not "One Thing You Is." I was talking about ATTYA being in one key center and tonicizing, and he said it was modulating through different keys. What is important is hearing how progressions operate in larger key centers--so the tension and release can be heard as well as intellectualized. Helps me with building longer phrases with melodic cohesion and development, not just thinking in chord islands.

[RaneyJR]

When I was taking lessons from Christian Miller, he said the tune's nickname was 'All The Chords There Are'. Here's another attempt at it, this time using the rhythm of figure 2-6. For some reason, this took me over an hour to get under my fingers, and even then I flub the last of the three attempts here. Things I wasn't sure about: does the change in direction on the last group of 5 harm the accenting of the groupings? And should I maybe have put the Gb on the quarter note of the third beat of the bar to emphasise it?

Hi Cliff, I haven't transcribed it, but just an objective listen - if I didn't know the chords -It sounds like it could all be in Db

[CliffR]

Hi Cliff, I haven't transcribed it, but just an objective listen - if I didn't know the chords -It sounds like it could all be in Db

Hey Jon - thanks for taking a listen and commenting!

Please don't bother transcribing it. I can tell you what I was thinking. On the Fm7, b3rd to root to b7 for the first three beats, then up to the natural 3rd, root, 7th and b6th into the Bbm7, where I just played a Bbm7 arpeggio from the b7 up an octave. (I realise now I missed a trick and should have voice lead from the A natural to the Bb.) Over the Eb7 I emphasised the #9 and b9, but I did at one point play the G. Then on the final bar I sustained the G for quarter note on the third beat before descending chromatically to the F# on the 4-and. As I understand it, the only differentiation between the Ab and Db keys is the G to Gb. Is there more I can do to emphasise the modulation? ATTAY is one of my favourite standards, and this is my third go at it after six years of trying to play jazz. It's possible I'm just not ready yet for its complexities .

[lawson-stone]

Hey Jon - thanks for taking a listen and commenting!

Please don't bother transcribing it. I can tell you what I was thinking. On the Fm7, b3rd to root to b7 for the first three beats, then up to the natural 3rd, root, 7th and b6th into the Bbm7, where I just played a Bbm7 arpeggio from the b7 up an octave. (I realise now I missed a trick and should have voice lead from the A natural to the Bb.) Over the Eb7 I emphasised the #9 and b9, but I did at one point play the G. Then on the final bar I sustained the G for quarter note on the third beat before descending chromatically to the F# on the 4-and. As I understand it, the only differentiation between the Ab and Db keys is the G to Gb. Is there more I can do to emphasise the modulation? ATTAY is one of my favourite standards, and this is my third go at it after six years of trying to play jazz. It's possible I'm just not ready yet for its complexities .

I heard a guy once say about ATTYA that it's EASY, just play a little bit in Ab, then play the same idea in Eb, then play a short phrase in G, a short phrase in E, then slide back into Ab.
Mmm hmmm

[Mick-7]

I heard a guy once say about ATTYA that it's EASY, just play a little bit in Ab, then play the same idea in Eb, then play a short phrase in G, a short phrase in E, then slide back into Ab. Mmm hmmm

Well, it is a series of VI-II-V-I or II-V-I's in various keys (5 of them), and these are the most common chord progressions in jazz standards, so essential to master. The difficult part of course is transitioning with finesse from one key to the next.

[RaneyJR]

Hey Jon - thanks for taking a listen and commenting!

Please don't bother transcribing it. I can tell you what I was thinking. On the Fm7, b3rd to root to b7 for the first three beats, then up to the natural 3rd, root, 7th and b6th into the Bbm7, where I just played a Bbm7 arpeggio from the b7 up an octave. (I realise now I missed a trick and should have voice lead from the A natural to the Bb.) Over the Eb7 I emphasised the #9 and b9, but I did at one point play the G. Then on the final bar I sustained the G for quarter note on the third beat before descending chromatically to the F# on the 4-and. As I understand it, the only differentiation between the Ab and Db keys is the G to Gb. Is there more I can do to emphasise the modulation? ATTAY is one of my favourite standards, and this is my third go at it after six years of trying to play jazz. It's possible I'm just not ready yet for its complexities .

To address the basic quandary generally. I say that the tune fights you I think of it this way. You should always strive for harmonic clarity in line but at the same time realizing that doing so makes it feel "stiff" or technical by connecting the harmonies as they move. It can feel like an exercise. The tune carries you through with notes choices, dicates even if you will. So you also have to shoot for something horizontal rather than vertical (in melodic vs. harmonic terms) to balance. Even press for darker notes because the harmony feels a little vanilla. It's a tightrope.

As far as doing this rhythm exercise on this tune. It's one of those tunes that you maybe have to learn it well enough to hear the harmony in your head while you're playing. So you're doing double work. I often have times where the F- territory feels so similar to the C- territory that I get brushed up against the Bb7 vs Bb-7 distinction - hearing that and making sure I don't mix that up. Then as soon as you hear it the Eb becomes a bVI pivot to G.

I think mentally I hear a moving counter line Ab - A /Bb C /Db Eb/ Ab Gb / F... on the opening 4 measures while I'm playing

[PickingMyEars]

Maybe we could stick to blues and turn around/ turn back progressions. The blues is a great canvas to explore melodic and rhythmic complexity.

There’s other tunes like…

1. A Foggy Day

2. If I Were A Bell

3. Autumn Leaves

4. Softly As In A Morning Sunrise

5. Rhythm Changes

Jon, what other tunes would you recommend as we explore Jimmy’s melodic and rhythmic concepts?

[RaneyJR]

Maybe we could stick to blues and turn around/ turn back progressions. The blues is a great canvas to explore melodic and rhythmic complexity.

There’s other tunes like…

1. A Foggy Day

2. If I Were A Bell

3. Autumn Leaves

4. Softly As In A Morning Sunrise

5. Rhythm Changes

Jon, what other tunes would you recommend as we explore Jimmy’s melodic and rhythmic concepts?

Well I wasn't suggesting "quitting" the ATTYA experiment (I think my examples show it's possible if you work at it a bit). I was just acknowledging what the problem is behind Cliff's quest to reflect harmony in line while introducing rhythmic tricks.

That said, as mentioned there are tons of with 2 beat cycles not 1 bar

Have You met Miss Jones, The Way You look tonight would work. Maybe transpose for variety

an interesting choice might be Embraceable You at walk tempo. You get the bIIIo in there

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Ab7 is a tritone sub for D7. DbMaj7 is a tritone sub for Gm7.

It’s the Ladybird turnaround.

DbMaj7 is a tritone substitution not for Gm7 but for Gm7b5 and only make sense if another player plays the minor third at the same time

[CliffR]

Back to the blues for the harmonic dislocation exercise. I had to stitch some segments together for this, because I wasn't able to switch starting points reliably in a single continuous play through. Also, I used a backing track to hear how the displaced lines sounded against the harmony.

[Mick-7]

This Guitar Player article by Dave Creamer is relevant to this topic, on page 3 of it he discusses taking 4 note patterns and displacing them rhythmically -- https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/atta...creamer-01-pdf


Displacement in action.....

[RaneyJR]

This Guitar Player article by Dave Creamer is relevant to this topic, on page 3 of it he discusses taking 4 note patterns and displacing them rhythmically -- https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/atta...creamer-01-pdf


Displacement in action.....

Mick 7. The article is interesting but I personally don't see it as related rhythmic displacement being discussed? Maybe you can explain how you see this.

I think what you are referring to displacement as a note occurring on a different or earlier beat - is not necessarily displacement. Unlike atonal patterns, tonal patterns typically have tonal gravity that resolves on strong beats based on conditioned perception of resolution. So when you change it around it's noticeable based on expectations both tonally and rhythmically.

What Creamer seems to be talking about is note order change variations in 12-tone four note patterns. Unless I'm missing something, what he refers to as rhythmic displacement seems more like an organizational method for the melodic patterns he created (starting note previously played 2nd, first, and so on). This seems especially true because he is writing everything in quarter notes.

In a nutshell for a line to feel like it is defying "gravity" it has to have some anti-tonal gravity expectations and/or against meter expections.

[Mick-7]

You're right, Jon, the Creamer article was not directly related to the Jimmy Raney concept of harmonic/rhythmic dislocation, I was thinking instead about the construction of the phrase or phrases that are being displaced. Just as we use a formula for rhythmic displacement of a phrase, we could use one to melodically/harmonically develop it.

For example, take this variation on the Figure 2-7 example from the book. The harmonic formula of this 4 note phrase is: 1-2-3-5 for the first 3 chords, which changes to 5-7-b9-1 for the F7.



It's just an idea that occurred to me, but perhaps a diversion from the lesson.

[RaneyJR]

You're right, Jon, the Creamer article was not directly related to the Jimmy Raney concept of harmonic/rhythmic dislocation, I was thinking instead about the construction of the phrase or phrases that are being displaced. Just as we use a formula for rhythmic displacement of a phrase, we could use one to melodically/harmonically develop it.

For example, take this variation on the Figure 2-7 example from the book. The harmonic formula of this 4 note phrase is: 1-2-3-5 for the first 3 chords, which changes to 5-7-b9-1 for the F7.



It's just an idea that occurred to me, but perhaps a diversion from the lesson.

I see.

So what you're talking about is melodic transposition I think. In this case, quasi retrograde. Meaning, the F7 phrase is the Bb phrase backwards interval-wise, right?

Intervallic permutations can be interesting. Sometimes the ear hears things in related ways that come after to an intellectual reasoning behind them. To a degree, there was a bit of that spirit in the general discovery process, as I dug up things and analyzed them over and over. An example of that was the Song is You analysis later on in the book.

Thing is, there is always this component of rhythm in everything he does that - on the surface - is easily missed. Something about Jimmy's style is so understated and subtle. Maybe driven by his "aw shucks" personality to a degree, I don't know. There are enough transcriptions of his solos that if I did just that it wouldn't really add much to the conversation. Which is why the book had more focus on certain areas than others, in particular rhythm.

The rhythm part seemed so key because it gets into other things compositionally speaking that is about story telling and speech patterns. You can have great words but without an effective delivery mechanism in cadence, rhythmic inflection and surprise you can lose the listener or sound robotic.

Not to toot, but.. what the heck.. (toot!) This article I wrote last year goes into this a bit of this idea, if you're curious. Sort of towards the middle

Section III Primer.... was an attempt to address just the nuts and bolts of his language though - the pure melodic elements.

[RaneyJR]

Back to the blues for the harmonic dislocation exercise. I had to stitch some segments together for this, because I wasn't able to switch starting points reliably in a single continuous play through. Also, I used a backing track to hear how the displaced lines sounded against the harmony.

Good practice session here, Cliff! I think this approach definitely helps with hearing how rhythmically transposed phrases sound and hopefully it becomes recognizable as a "thing" before you execute it spontaneously in a potential solo.

The only suggestion I could make would be in the long term (And I hope this is not a touchy topic and I don't want to derail your progress). Is the aspect of rhythmic feel. As you progress musically I would suggest that you move away from - what I hear as-- a bit of an approximation of the real swung eighth that begins to sound like "skipping" (e.g. da-Dot-da-Dot-da Dot da Da). Which seems to ground the beat too much in the quarters, which then begins to defeat displacement. It's more (starting on a upbeat eighth) Dee /ya - Dee/ya. Almost to the point where the the upbeat eighth is connected legato to the downbeat and the downbeat is under accented.

Of course as you learn to accent in unexpected places with more frequency, this problem with overly beat grounded feel should take care of itself.

[CliffR]

Good practice session here, Cliff! I think this approach definitely helps with hearing how rhythmically transposed phrases sound and hopefully it becomes recognizable as a "thing" before you execute it spontaneously in a potential solo.

The only suggestion I could make would be in the long term (And I hope this is not a touchy topic and I don't want to derail your progress). Is the aspect of rhythmic feel. As you progress musically I would suggest that you move away from - what I hear as-- a bit of an approximation of the real swung eighth that begins to sound like "skipping" (e.g. da-Dot-da-Dot-da Dot da Da). Which seems to ground the beat too much in the quarters, which then begins to defeat displacement. It's more (starting on a upbeat eighth) Dee /ya - Dee/ya. Almost to the point where the the upbeat eighth is connected legato to the downbeat and the downbeat is under accented.

Of course as you learn to accent in unexpected places with more frequency, this problem with overly beat grounded feel should take care of itself.

Hi Jon - thanks! Definitely not a touchy topic - I'm always happy to hear advice. Swing feel is something I worked on with Christian, and it's possible since then I've regressed some. I do occasionally try and slur into the down beats, as folks such as Peter Amos on here advocate, although it's far from being an integral part of my playing as yet. Here's something I recorded a while ago where I tried to do that as much as possible on the first four of Donna Lee:

As for rhythmic dislocation coming out spontaneously in my improv, that'd be great, but I've been finding that even relatively simple things take their time to show up like that. And this ain't simple . All one can do is put in the work and trust in the process.

[RaneyJR]

Hi Jon - thanks! Definitely not a touchy topic - I'm always happy to hear advice. Swing feel is something I worked on with Christian, and it's possible since then I've regressed some. I do occasionally try and slur into the down beats, as folks such as Peter Amos on here advocate, although it's far from being an integral part of my playing as yet. Here's something I recorded a while ago where I tried to do that as much as possible on the first four of Donna Lee:

As for rhythmic dislocation coming out spontaneously in my improv, that'd be great, but I've been finding that even relatively simple things take their time to show up like that. And this ain't simple . All one can do is put in the work and trust in the process.

I hear the Dee-ya slurs in that. keep it up

[PickingMyEars]

Hi Jon - thanks! Definitely not a touchy topic - I'm always happy to hear advice. Swing feel is something I worked on with Christian, and it's possible since then I've regressed some.

Christian told me to straighten out my eighth notes and lay them back a little. Dexter Gordan did that. Play straight, but lean back. Coincidentally, Jon Raney gave me the same advice. Do you mind if I copy what you emailed me? He told me to listen to trumpet players. Work on connecting the notes and using purposeful accents.

I am working in more articulations, like slides and hammers. But if I used articulations all the time to approximate swing feel, my time feel wouldn't swing at all. Rhythm is DEEP and includes how we articulate and accent our lines--plenty to study for a lifetime.

[Christian Miller]

Studying the way Wes actually plays his lines is instructive

Because he is relatively limited in how many notes he can pick his choices on what to pick and what to slur are very telling.

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