The Jimmy Raney Book Study Group

[Mick-7]

I think using the vocal exercise where you count the beats and sing the pitches is helpful
so the displacement is sung: "2 and 3 and 4 and 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 1 and 2..." For example on the first rhythm changes exercise. He would often demo that vocally.

Jon, To clarify, these are not formal polyrhythms, such as 5 over 4 , 3 over 4, etc., because you have the customary number of beats per bar - eight 8th notes, etc. What we are actually doing is accenting the notes in our phrases in various ways, so that they may start and/or end on or off the beat, is that correct?

[CliffR]

Here's a blues line based on the rhythm from figure 2-6. A bit trickier to pull off than the groupings of 3, for sure.

[RaneyJR]

Jon, To clarify, these are not formal polyrhythms, such as 5 over 4 , 3 over 4, etc., because you have the customary number of beats per bar - eight 8th notes, etc. What we are actually doing is accenting the notes in our phrases in various ways, so that they may start and/or end on or off the beat, is that correct?

Mick-7, Jimmy's examples in this chapter, yes reflect variable polyrhythms, that is, groupings of eighths that are in uneven groups and accenting them as you describe. Quick polyrhythms if you will. I think part of this was to solve 2 issues - one is to displace on a more micro level. But then with the variable grouping (combining different groupings) was to reground the measure later. He was particularly adept at this - changing accents to suit his goal to defeat "straightness" in the effort to introduce tension and reduce "flatness" in rhythm.

Variable beat grouping becomes an interesting topic because how one does this best often coincides with a larger perception of measures peripherally on an intuitive level. That is where the book ultimately tries to get to.

Oh, and the quote of mine you put in your post, I assume was just to continue the thread. That specific example was on displacement in Chapter 2 because someone brought it up.

[Mick-7]

He was particularly adept at this - changing accents to suit his goal to defeat "straightness" in the effort to introduce tension and reduce "flatness" in rhythm.

Reminds me of the South Indian music technique of "metric modulation" where they accent beats in different ways to give the impression of changing meters. Strictly speaking, the time signature hasn't changed but it sounds like it has.

[PickingMyEars]

Tried to upload sound files without SoundCloud. Forum is weird with file types. Might have to record a video, but that's a whole setup that I need to plan. My laptop needs to be hooked up to an external microphone and EQ'ed with everything. Hate to say that recording voice memos with my phone is easier, but file size is an issue.

Would be cool for us to share the actual exercises as written, as well as where they take us. I've been practicing the "dislocation" and preliminary poly rhythm exercises. They are tough, but really redefined what I THOUGHT I knew about feeling a measure of musical time.

Lawson, I think it would be very helpful to put the Raney etudes next to the exercises in this book.

[Mick-7]

Tried to upload sound files without SoundCloud. Forum is weird with file types.

It says that an .mp3 file is a valid attachment, I just did a test upload of one (size = 1.85 mb) and it did attach it. But people would have to download it to play it whereas they can be played online with Sound Cloud or Box.com (and there are probably others).

I always upload my audio files to box.com, you can get a free account with them, here's one I uploaded: March 2026 - Old Folks

[PickingMyEars]

Voice memos record as Mp4 on the iPhone. Had to do some conversion to Mp3, and I still had issues.

Used to use Sound Cloud, but maybe Box is a better alternative.

Impressed by the quality of recording straight to phone, makes it less of an event.

Noisy household, so I usually have to record at night--and be wary of amplified volumes.

Don't want to sidetrack the thread with recording issues. The thread must go on!

There's a lot of excellent material just in Chapter 2. I wanted to capture my process with some of the figures and what they inspire. I'll figure it out. Thanks for the suggestions, Mick!

[charlieparker]

Voice memos record as Mp4 on the iPhone. Had to do some conversion to Mp3, and I still had issues.

Used to use Sound Cloud, but maybe Box is a better alternative.

Impressed by the quality of recording straight to phone, makes it less of an event.

Noisy household, so I usually have to record at night--and be wary of amplified volumes.

There's a lot of excellent material just in Chapter 2. I wanted to capture my process with some of the figures and what they inspire. I'll figure it out. Thanks for the suggestions, Mick!

I always find everything sounds worse on sound cloud or YouTube. Do they compress the audio or something?

[RaneyJR]

It says that an .mp3 file is a valid attachment, I just did a test upload of one (size = 1.85 mb) and it did attach it. But people would have to download it to play it whereas they can be played online with Sound Cloud or Box.com (and there are probably others).

I always upload my audio files to box.com, you can get a free account with them, here's one I uploaded: March 2026 - Old Folks

Good job with the sound there - for that tender vibe. Gutsy move to upload a slow ballad given they really are the hardest to play - all that space. Old Folks is a nice tune. I remember Doug recording a nice version pretty early on. I forget the album. I know it's with Ben Besiakov

*Update. Blue and White, 1983

[RaneyJR]

Voice memos record as Mp4 on the iPhone. Had to do some conversion to Mp3, and I still had issues.

Used to use Sound Cloud, but maybe Box is a better alternative.

Impressed by the quality of recording straight to phone, makes it less of an event.

Noisy household, so I usually have to record at night--and be wary of amplified volumes.

Don't want to sidetrack the thread with recording issues. The thread must go on!

There's a lot of excellent material just in Chapter 2. I wanted to capture my process with some of the figures and what they inspire. I'll figure it out. Thanks for the suggestions, Mick!

I lost my precious DR 40 portable Tascam. That really did a nice job of direct recording I then would pull that into audacity, It fell to a well documented audio disease where it shuts off with a pop when you try to switch the source to line in.

[PickingMyEars]

Okay. I have Figures 2-5, 2-6, and 2-10 recorded on Youtube.

Listen with headphones.

With the "Dislocation" exercises, I felt like the downbeat click of my metronome was moving to the "4."

I'm working through the "Rainy Day" solo. As a gauge of progress, here is a clip from a gig I did 5 years ago:

Work in progress

[CliffR]

Okay. I have Figures 2-5, 2-6, and 2-10 recorded on Youtube.

Listen with headphones.

With the "Dislocation" exercises, I felt like the downbeat click of my metronome was moving to the "4."

I'm working through the "Rainy Day" solo. As a gauge of progress, here is a clip from a gig I did 5 years ago:

Work in progress

Welcome to the party! Nice playing on your gig. I spent three years in Seattle myself, living in SLU and working at the Smith Tower. Great city!

If you don't mind me saying so, I think there's a minor mistake on the second play through of 2-5, where you extend the first note of the last bar to a quarter note. In 2-6, I think it would sound better with more accent on the first of each of the groups of the five. It doesn't really sound to my ears like the second group is starting on the 'and'. But nice work!

[RaneyJR]

Welcome to the party! Nice playing on your gig. I spent three years in Seattle myself, living in SLU and working at the Smith Tower. Great city!

If you don't mind me saying so, I think there's a minor mistake on the second play through of 2-5, where you extend the first note of the last bar to a quarter note. In 2-6, I think it would sound better with more accent on the first of each of the groups of the five. It doesn't really sound to my ears like the second group is starting on the 'and'. But nice work!

I'm not hearing the issue you describe on 2-5? Am I out of touch with my book? If any note were extended the final note would end up on the click not before it as played. Can you do your own version so i can hear what you mean. Or do you simply mean should he accent the G more strongly so that it feels like an afterbeat

On 2-6. Yes, I suppose the low need G could be accented more strongly to not feel like a pick-up "regroundIng" to beat 1 and more like a 5 grouping. That is one of the harder aspects, fighting the tendency to want to straighten. (Spoiler Alert) At the end of the book there is a technical picking exercise he devised to pat your foot and play "against the grain"

The playing session sounds good to me for 5 years ago. I think the only issue is to execute more confidently - but then again - don't we all need to do that

[CliffR]

I'm not hearing the issue you describe on 2-5? Am I out of touch with my book? If any note were extended the final note would end up on the click not before it as played. Can you do your own version so i can hear what you mean. Or do you simply mean should he accent the G more strongly so that it feels like an afterbeat

Well, I'd definitely trust your ears over mine.... but I just listened again at half speed. First time around is fine, but the second time, it definitely sounds to me like the G is a quarter note and the G an octave down afterwards starts on the beat. But I'm happy to accept I'm wrong on this one.

@Pick - just trying to be helpful and supportive, btw.

Okay, just listened again. I'm talking crap. Sounds fine now. Please ignore me .

[PickingMyEars]

No problem at all!

Specific and constructive criticism is what I live for--that was my day job as a teacher, after all.

Getting the accents right is another challenge--and an opportunity to fine tune the clarity of my rhythm.

That was a good gig. Great bass player and great drummer. I learned a lot from them too!

[CliffR]

Here's another go at 2-5, this time with a line composed over the first four bars of ATTYA

[RaneyJR]

Here's another go at 2-5, this time with a line composed over the first four bars of ATTYA

Rhythmically it works. For me I would shoot for slightly more definitive notes in regards to the harmony. My rule of thumb is, if I didn't know what the chords were could I guess them from the notes I play? There are so other strong phrases in there, I'm just looking for a little more.

So you've traversed the F- to Bb- By playing (Ab F D--> Ab F Db). It's ok but feels like Bb7 to Bb-7. My tendency sometimes is to lean into the Bb- by moving up to A (e.g. F7 ish motion)

Also the ending needs to feel more like a modulation to Db which makes the Gb somewhat definitive. Don't think you played that.

[CliffR]

Rhythmically it works. For me I would shoot for slightly more definitive notes in regards to the harmony. My rule of thumb is, if I didn't know what the chords were could I guess them from the notes I play? There are so other strong phrases in there, I'm just looking for a little more.

So you've traversed the F- to Bb- By playing (Ab F D--> Ab F Db). It's ok but feels like Bb7 to Bb-7. My tendency sometimes is to lean into the Bb- by moving up to A (e.g. F7 ish motion)

Also the ending needs to feel more like a modulation to Db which which make the Gb somewhat definitive. Don't think you played that.

Thanks Jon - I appreciate the detailed notes. I was indeed thinking Bb7 over the F-. I thought it would be a nice substitution, but agree the result sounds pretty weak. (I now realise the natural 6 on the F isn't even part of the key). I'd not thought about using the Gb at the end (which I also wasn't particularly happy with), so will try that and your F7 idea.

[RaneyJR]

(I now realise the natural 6 on the F isn't even part of the key)...

Ah, well this is getting into another funny theory topic. I would look at the "D is verboten" because of 4 flats idea more in the realm of "it depends". But for example I have often played and get away with a F- as a strong tonic (e.g. using thinking F- with nat 7/nat 6 as in F melodic minor) then modulating to Bb-. But this has to do with colorizing the listener ear to this tonic minor idea.

In a nutshell I think of minor chords in these 2 dimensions: getting there and then hanging out there. When I'm getting there I tend to play Db when I'm on it I tend to play D natural.

Ofcourse ATTYA is (likely) the most harmonically migratory standard in the tin pan alley repertoire... so there is that. The tune is constantly fighting you to not sound mechanical

[PickingMyEars]

Spoke to Jon many months ago (?) about ATTYA, as I was studying it with my teacher for a while. Great tune, a lot to learn. I think Bruce Foreman included it in his "Mother Tunes" list.

The F minor7 isn't part of a ii V. Doesn't really function as a tonic minor either. When I studied it with my teacher, he framed it as an Abmaj6. That helped me apply those Barry Harris half-step mechanisms and other melodic tools. Abmaj6 and Fmin7 are the same notes, but seeing that first chord as Abmaj6 helped me place it within the key of Ab major.

ATTYA was the first tune to REALLY get me thinking of harmonic rhythm. Really easy to meander on that tune and sound like soup. Harmonic and rhythmic clarity are crucial for tunes like ATTYA and Autumn Leaves.

Cliff, great idea to apply the concepts in the book to ATTYA. I have to review a little more from Chapter 2 and I may join you.

[lawson-stone]

Spoke to Jon many months ago (?) about ATTYA, as I was studying it with my teacher for a while. Great tune, a lot to learn. I think Bruce Foreman included it in his "Mother Tunes" list.

The F minor7 isn't part of a ii V. Doesn't really function as a tonic minor either. When I studied it with my teacher, he framed it as an Abmaj6. That helped me apply those Barry Harris half-step mechanisms and other melodic tools. Abmaj6 and Fmin7 are the same notes, but seeing that first chord as Abmaj6 helped me place it within the key of Ab major.

ATTYA was the first tune to REALLY get me thinking of harmonic rhythm. Really easy to meander on that tune. Harmonic and rhythmic clarity are essential for tunes like ATTYA and Autumn Leaves.

I think of the opening Fm7 as a vi chord, as in a I vi ii V7 I progression, simply starting on the vi. But having been beaten up so many times by ATTYA I am always open to other ideas. My suggestion does allow me to "think" in Ab major for the whole first line.

[Mick-7]

I think of the opening Fm7 as a vi chord, as in a I vi ii V7 I progression, simply starting on the vi. But having been beaten up so many times by ATTYA I am always open to other ideas. My suggestion does allow me to "think" in Ab major for the whole first line.

Ralph Patt calls it a VIm7 in his Vanilla Book so that's using your bean, Lawson (your vanilla bean that is). The b7th and nat. 7th will both work, but going to Bbm7, I'd probably stress the nat.7th (D) to distinguish it from the 3rd (Db) of Bbm7, as Cliff did. And you're still in Ab major (lydian major) since D is the #11th of Ab.

[RaneyJR]

But the first chord is major - F^7 (> Ab7 > Db^7, etc.)

From your symbols above I assume the ^ is Major as in Fmaj7. Who's saying that? I'm saying F- ^7

I'm just saying that you could approach it temporarily with common practice which often leads to technically non-key tones. I see this is simply allowing yourself to make note substitutions that defy the key or written chord if you go about it convincingly.

Here's an example with some of the Chapter's 8th grouping concepts currently being entertained. I'm not selling the D natural in the first bar on this example but I probably could



For example if you played an A-7 D7 or 1/2 up E-7 A7 Eb-7 Ab7 progression to Dbmaj. That is not technically Ab at all but played pretty often by established players.

[RaneyJR]

Spoke to Jon many months ago (?) about ATTYA, as I was studying it with my teacher for a while. Great tune, a lot to learn. I think Bruce Foreman included it in his "Mother Tunes" list.

The F minor7 isn't part of a ii V. Doesn't really function as a tonic minor either. When I studied it with my teacher, he framed it as an Abmaj6. That helped me apply those Barry Harris half-step mechanisms and other melodic tools. Abmaj6 and Fmin7 are the same notes, but seeing that first chord as Abmaj6 helped me place it within the key of Ab major.

ATTYA was the first tune to REALLY get me thinking of harmonic rhythm. Really easy to meander on that tune and sound like soup. Harmonic and rhythmic clarity are crucial for tunes like ATTYA and Autumn Leaves.

Cliff, great idea to apply the concepts in the book to ATTYA. I have to review a little more from Chapter 2 and I may join you.

Picking, as much as I can agree here, I hate the idea of defining "what" a tune or chord is with rules that are predetermined. It's really where you hear the harmony and the line going and whether you make good or bad choices within the framework your hearing. For example when I played the sample solo for you I was just trying to hear and play lines where I felt the strong harmonic direction was moving and be emphatic about the rhythm contour and pulse.

I wasn't thinking "my F- is Ab6". For example what came before it is screaming C7 I'm going to F- pretty loudly, no? When I get there I might start moving again. But as I was saying the moving harmony in this tune is a feature not a bug.

[PickingMyEars]

Just important to hear the basic changes before superimposing different substitutions is all. Hearing the key center is important so each chord doesn't sound like an island. Hearing the key center helps me make sense of hearing the progression around it all.

Key word is "hearing." I can't play from theory and methodologies alone. I need to hear and internalize it all. Advanced substitutions work for me only if I can hear the key center and where everything is going.

You can make the ii minor 7 of a ii V I major into a ii min/maj 7 as well. No rules in the end.

But being able to hear the melodic logic, that's something I am continuously chasing--as many of us are here too as well. I think rhythm plays a huge part in creating confident melodies. So I am eager to get deeper into the book.

I only found one version of Jimmy Raney playing ATTYA on Youtube, on Wisteria. Great album, but I was surprised to only find one take. Sure there are others.