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Yeah I think that sounds about right. You aren’t dealing with individual note choices in any case. Most of it is driven by rhythm and shape for me FWIW
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02-08-2025 03:02 PM
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I am impressed/excited by a great guitar player, live, playing fast, but I almost never buy the record to hear it again.
But, according to some, playing fast is part of being a well-rounded jazz musician fwiw. So, you need something you can play on fast rhythm changes and Cherokee, at a minimum. Otherwise, people might talk.
My first tip, in case it isn't obvious to all, is feel the pulse slowly. For example, tap your foot once per bar rather than 4 times. On Cherokee it feels right to tap on 1.
In big band, I find that I have to take a moment to figure out how I'm going to feel the pulse when reading an unfamiliar tune. And, I have to solidify it in my mind. Otherwise, I might get confused when the band starts doing a couple of bars of oddball hits and, in the excitement of trying to read this s***, I forget how many times per bar I'm tapping.
Or, as the count-off is starting, I'm just finishing opening the chart and I have no idea of the tempo until I hear the count -- and I have to make that decision about tapping, well, too quickly.
Second tip. First cut in the practice room, solo in half notes. Then try to replace some of them with quarters, or heaven forbid, eighths.
Hopefully, this solo material will be melodic enough to sound good and sustain interest. OTOH, it seems to me that some players don't worry so much about the melodic content but pursue feeling-through-speed with interesting harmony. That can work too.
Third tip. Some fast tunes are contrafacts. So, if somebody calls Groovin' High at a blistering pace, you can play a chorus of the melody of Whispering. Or for rhythm changes, play Oleo, which is one of the easier heads to play fast.
Fourth tip. If you can't do it, don't worry about it. You can always try to sound good some other way.
Fifth tip. Even if you give up on the idea of playing fast, find a couple of licks that you can play at a zillion bpm. Then throw one or two of them into the solo. Makes it sound like you could play fast if you wanted to, but you're choosing not to show off.
Sixth. If you can't play fast, there are some gigs you probably won't get. OTOH, guys who insist on playing fast like that aren't going to get some other types of gigs. Or they might not enjoy them if they did.
I mean, it would be better to have the option to play fast, but, to some extent, that's your nervous system and there can be an upper limit. You push it by finding licks that flow so effortlessly you can really speed them up (the bottleneck is usually in the right hand, but there are licks that avoid the bottleneck). More than enough here for one post, but if anybody is interested in speed technique Warren Nunes style, I'll respond.
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Do you even transcribe man? Everyone plays memorized patterns. A few I've personally transcribed and saw patterns... Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Bill Jennings, Kenny Burrell, Houston Person, Chet Baker
Originally Posted by Mick-7
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In a lesson with a player whose name you would know, I played a section of one of his recorded solos from an older album. I played it as best I could (too slow) and my goal was finding out how he fingered it, so I could work on getting it up to speed.
He heard the line, immediately said, "one of my old licks" and changed the subject or maybe got distracted by somebody else - can't recall.
He's a blisteringly fast player when he wants to be. But, I've heard him for hours of jams and he repeated himself occasionally. He had some stuff worked out. Hard to tell how much because it was so well integrated but, I suspect, he had a big library of licks to choose from - and he apparently would retire them at some point. I also believe that he could make new music at a pretty high tempo.
The lick that I alluded to at the start of this post involved an extremely clever fingering (as best as I could work it out) and catchy melody. Optimized for both hands and including multiple alterations of the dominant chord. I never would have thought of it.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 02-08-2025 at 08:30 PM.
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One thing you can definitely do at fast tempos is say ‘no’ and not play a thing just because it’s reflexive. But that means you have to have things you can play reflexively first.
Honestly, a lot of advice is student specific. What I’d tell a talented young jazz undergraduate is entirely different to what I’d tell someone in the process getting it together for instance. And of course different people learn in different ways.
As for ‘having to play fast’ yes it is something that comes up for people who call themselves professional jazz players. You have to have a strategy for dealing with that social situation. But if you are not in the social situation it’s not going to be an issue, unless of course playing fast stuff is a driving ambition.
For me, the social situation is everything. If you play mostly original music or free improv or something, that skill set might seem less important after a while.
I haven’t played a mental Cherokee on a gig for about four years… I used to play a lot of fast fast swing stuff, not much now - but someone might call it on a gig haha … and I can’t remember the last time I played Giant steps out… probably a decade.
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
Well, the topic is playing fast tunes, and I'm talking about those who play nothing but a mixture of memorized patterns on them. Their solos have no melodic development and you can't recall a thing they've played when the song has ended, you feel like you're attending an athletic event rather than a concert. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Ah, come on, rp, you can't tease us like that, what section of what recorded solo are you referring to? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I don't know if he would want it on the Internet forever in a searchable archive. So, I'm being discreet. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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I'm just curious what the phrase is, you made it sound unique, it's irrelevant who played it. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I believe this is called a straw man. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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All I said was that musicians who regurgitate patterns at fast tempos bore me, I'd rather hear something simple that is musically coherent. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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It really is. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I think he was Ian Anderson's music instructor. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Sounds about right. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Everyone is different.. but playing fast is just not that easy.
Can you just play single notes for each chord at fast tempos. In tunes like Cherokee... Even just the melody or Roots . Just the "A" section. Where I'm going is... do you even have the picking skills to play fast?
240 or 260 just isn't that fast with 8th notes.
Play Cherokee Melody at 240-260 with just quarter notes... all down strokes.
Now try 8th notes. (down/up)
Then Use Triplets... and eventually 16's. (then mix it up, patterns etc...)
I'm skipping what or where you can melodically and harmonically pull from to create improv... because that's a different technique.
You can teach yourself to Think Faster by having the technical skills to realize what your thinking.
Developed Technique allows you freedom to think faster by being able to skip the mechanical or technical aspect of realizing what your thinking, (or feeling), while playing.
Personally playing memorized longer collections of notes or licks is the same thing as single notes... just a little more complicated...LOL.
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There's this attitude that if it's hard to do, it's somehow wrong. I play it here:
http://www.ralphpatt.com/Backing%20t...e%20%20340.mp3
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Ralph Patt did dumb down (simplify) the chords though. Originally Posted by sgcim
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Why on earth would you use that backing? It sounds awful. sounds like band in a box from years ago. I just don't get it. Originally Posted by sgcim
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Got to, my man. Got to. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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[QUOTE=jazzyfan;1393333]Why on earth would you use that backing? It sounds awful. sounds like band in a box from years ago. I just don't get it.[/QUOTE
I only use those backing tracks for tempos 300BPM or more.If you can cut metronomic tempos like they have on Ralph Patt's tracks, you'll have no problems playing in 'real' situations like gigs, sessions etc...
Monday night at a big band rehearsal, we played Gordon Goodwin's "Swingin' For the Fences", an uptempo chart. and the horn players were stepping on their dicks trying to cut the tempo, and I was able to get to everything I heard in my head perfectly. in time.
Things like Patt's Backing tracks and the Danny Gatton exercise I tried to hip you guys to are practicing tools, not performances, which was what Reg seemed to be talking about.
You're right about those backing tracks being harmonically corny, but time-wise they're metronomically perfect, so when you get on the gig, your ears are lined up with your fingers.
I would never use those backing tracks live; if you listen to the changes, they never use extensions that go beyond dominant 7ths and minor 7ths.
But try to play off of AATYA at 300bpm, and you'll fall on your face the first time and blame the square tracks like I did.. But the actual problem is your time, not the track's time.
Another harmonically peculiarity of those tracks are that they'll go to the IV chord after a V7 of iim7. I can't figure what that's about.
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Yeah, obviously, but who in their right mind ever plays "On a Clear Day" in G with a C maj7 in the 9th bar following the Bm7 E7? Originally Posted by Mick-7
They do this over again in that type of situation on other tunes. It's obviously some type of cult that existed back then, probably started by Elon Musk...
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Ralph Patt's chord changes are simplified, that's why they're called "vanilla changes." Why would you expect him to play different chord changes than those posted on his website? I wouldn't use them for tunes played slower than about 200 bpm. Originally Posted by sgcim
ON A CLEAR DAY - Key of G - 4/4
[: G | G | C7 | C7 | G | G | E7 | E7 |
| C | C | Cm maj7 | Cm6 | G | Bbdim | Am7 | D7 |
|| Dm7 | G7 | Dm7 | G7 | C | A7 | Am7 | D7 |
| G | G | Bm7b5 | E7 | Am7 | Am7 | Am7 | D7 |
1.________________________________________________ __________
| G | E7 | Am7 | D7 :]
2.________________________________________________ __________
| G | G | G | G |
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Can you repeat that? I must’ve missed itDanny Gatton exercise I tried to hip you guys to are practicing tools, not performances
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It's been years since I've looked at the part of the website where he writes the chords out to the tunes. I just use the backing tracks. Originally Posted by Mick-7
That C at the start of the second line sticks out like a sore thumb.
There are a bunch of other tunes where they do the same thing, following the V of ii chord with the IV chord. It must have been a thing that the piano player was into in the 60s or thereabouts.
I also found it interesting that on "Love For Sale, they stay on the i minor chord for 8 bars at the top of the tune. When George Russell wrote his contrafact on LFS, "Ezzthetic", he used the same chord change there. It must have been the way the boppers played it before people started on the IV7 chord later on
One good thing about the backing tracks is that they really train your ear to recognize when you deviate from the Vanilla changes. When you play a note that doesn't fit those changes, it sticks out like a sore thumb. If they used hipper changes, you could play any notes you want to, and it's not as noticeable as it is with the simpler changes.
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It's on the Danny Gatton instructional tape on You Tube. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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