Anyone use these subs?

[pamosmusic]

Yes, like from my 2nd post above:

MINOR 3RD SUB MATRIX: ii - V

*any

chord from 1st column can go to any chord in 2nd column.

Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
Abm7...........Db7
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
Bm7.............E7
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)

Missing the major 7s … and also any of those dominants could sub for each other too!

[grahambop]

Here’s the Benson example:

[princeplanet]

But at what point is an outside group just arbitrary, as opposed to being intrinsically related to the resolving Tonic?

I mean, I could pull from B7 and it's family of 4 and convince myself it can sound as good as any of the others cited in the dim7 group of subs when resolving to C. At some point we may as well just consider anything against anything, no?
Or in some kind of Schenkerian way, can we agree on an order to determine most inside to most outside?

[princeplanet]

Here’s the Benson example:

The held A# is curious, I should listen to the example to see how he pulls it off, cheers.

[ragman1]

I don't wanna die wondering....

I can understand that :-)

Here's a bit of what I've been doing. One point is that in spite of using all the options instead of Dorian it still doesn't sound like I'm deviating that much. Which I think is quite interesting.

(edit) There's a mistake at about 3.52. OMG.

[bediles]

FWIW. The thread went off the rails with this min3rd/dim sub business. The original dominants the OP mentioned were G7, A7, C7, and E7. This is tonicizing a chord build on each chord tone of Dmin7. And then subs from there of the dominants.

Min3rd subs fair play but not what the initial question was

[pamosmusic]

FWIW. The thread went off the rails with this min3rd/dim sub business. The original dominants the OP mentioned were G7, A7, C7, and E7. This is tonicizing a chord build on each chord tone of Dmin7. And then subs from there of the dominants.

Min3rd subs fair play but not what the initial question was

Yes but with diatonic subs off the tritone of each.

[princeplanet]

But at what point is an outside group just arbitrary, as opposed to being intrinsically related to the resolving Tonic?

I mean, I could pull from B7 and it's family of 4 and convince myself it can sound as good as any of the others cited in the dim7 group of subs when resolving to C. At some point we may as well just consider anything against anything, no?
Or in some kind of Schenkerian way, can we agree on an order to determine most inside to most outside?

To elaborate a little, the main Dom subs and their respective Families of 4 may as well be expressed as Dom 13th chords as they contain all the family notes.

So, when considering each Dom 13th as subs for G7 resolving to C , and comparing their pitch set to G7, we have:


Bb13 - G, D, F but no B


Db13 - B but no F, G or D


E13 - D, B but no F or G


Why wouldn't we assume that the order of dissonance would be Bb13, followed by E 13 then Db 13, which only has one chord tone in common with G7 ?


If we accept that, then consider B13:


B13 - B but no F, G or D

It also only has the B note in common with G7, is that more outside than Db13? Or the same? By what qualifiers?

What about all the other Dom13th chords? Why would they be less related to G7 then, say, Bb13, Db13 and E13?

Or am I over thinking this?

[princeplanet]

I can understand that :-)

Here's a bit of what I've been doing. One point is that in spite of using all the options instead of Dorian it still doesn't sound like I'm deviating that much. Which I think is quite interesting.

Sure, when sticking mainly to Dorian or Blues scale, the occasional step into more dissonance works because you don't dwell there. Gotta say though, what was going on with the Ebm chord? (just listening on my laptop, so couldn't hear it that well). What you were playing over that wasn't working as well, in my opinion.

[bediles]

To elaborate a little, the main Dom subs and their respective Families of 4 may as well be expressed as Dom 13th chords as they contain all the family notes.

So, when considering each Dom 13th as subs for G7 resolving to C , and comparing their pitch set to G7, we have:


Bb13 - G, D, F but no B


Db13 - B but no F, G or D


E13 - D, B but no F or G


Why wouldn't we assume that the order of dissonance would be Bb13, followed by E 13 then Db 13, which only has one chord tone in common with G7 ?


If we accept that, then consider B13:


B13 - B but no F, G or D

It also only has the B note in common with G7, is that more outside than Db13? Or the same? By what qualifiers?

What about all the other Dom13th chords? Why would they be less related to G7 then, say, Bb13, Db13 and E13?

Or am I over thinking this?

Subs can be anything in a way, the ol melodic and rhythmic logic. Typically dim subs will not all be natural dominants if you want to keep the sound more inside. The extentions can be conceptualized as the V or tritone sub (G13 or G7b9, Db13) of the tonic and of its minor (E7b9, Bb13).

[ragman1]

Sure, when sticking mainly to Dorian or Blues scale, the occasional step into more dissonance works because you don't swell there. Gotta say though, what was going on with the Ebm chord? (just listening on my laptop, so couldn't hear it that well). What you were playing over that wasn't working as well, in my opinion.

There was a slight mistake at 3.52 but I know about that, I went back to Dm too quick. Apart from that where was the bit you didn't like?

[ragman1]

I think the thing about subs is how out you want them to sound. Depends on the tune, of course. Out over Stella is one thing, over a modern tune is another.

[princeplanet]

FWIW. The thread went off the rails with this min3rd/dim sub business. The original dominants the OP mentioned were G7, A7, C7, and E7. This is tonicizing a chord build on each chord tone of Dmin7. And then subs from there of the dominants.

Min3rd subs fair play but not what the initial question was

You're right, we are discussing 2 different things. G7, A7, C7, and E7 as optional material over Dm7 comes about through considering Dm7 as being from C maj or A min as the root key in which case their Dominants - G7 and E7 respectively apply. Similarly, if we see Dm7 as coming from D minor or F major, then the applied Dominant are A7 and C7.

But if we're thinking G7 and it's min 3rd Matrix subs, then we have G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7. No A7 or C7 of course as they derive from D Aeolian, not D Dorian.

So yeah, both separate ideas.

[princeplanet]

There was a slight mistake at 3.52 but I know about that, I went back to Dm too quick. Apart from that where was the bit you didn't like?

TBH, most times you changed to the 2nd chord.

[ragman1]

TBH, most times you changed to the 2nd chord.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by the 2nd chord.

[princeplanet]

...The extentions can be conceptualized as the V or tritone sub (G13 or G7b9, Db13) of the tonic and of its minor (E7b9, Bb13).

You know, I never saw it this way, I always assumed that Dom7 minor 3rd hopping was logical in a stacked 3rd sense. But of course it's the natural and TT dom of the Maj key and those of it's relative Minor. Duh!

[princeplanet]

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by the 2nd chord.

Every time you moved away from Dm, I assumed Ebm, but didn't pick it up that well through the laptop.

[pamosmusic]

But at what point is an outside group just arbitrary, as opposed to being intrinsically related to the resolving Tonic?

I mean, I could pull from B7 and it's family of 4 and convince myself it can sound as good as any of the others cited in the dim7 group of subs when resolving to C. At some point we may as well just consider anything against anything, no?
Or in some kind of Schenkerian way, can we agree on an order to determine most inside to most outside?

To me I don’t think this stuff is terribly dissonant in a trio, but certainly moreso with a piano. Whether it’s chord against chord, or chord against bass note matters a lot, I think.

[princeplanet]

To me I don’t think this stuff is terribly dissonant in a trio, but certainly moreso with a piano. Whether it’s chord against chord, or chord against bass note matters a lot, I think.

What about single note line against Chord? I think that's what I'm interested in discussing here.

[ragman1]

Yes, it was Ebm. There's only Dm and Ebm in the tune. It's really just the same harmonies repeated a half-tone up. It's probably just the dreadful quality of my equipment.

Please don't waste any more time on it but here are all the Ebm bits separated out. The 4th one has the clam in it so don't count that. Unless you think it sounds super-cool, of course :-)

[ragman1]

Anyway, forget that.

See, I do subs all the time so I'm interested in this. One thing is, it seems to me that it greatly depends on the tune. A modern tune played in the modern 'cool' manner can take all kinds of subs but it still depends on the style and structure of the tune.

Personally, I'd test the efficacy of subs in the context of a tune, not in isolation by themselves. You need something to measure them against.

[pamosmusic]

What about single note line against Chord? I think that's what I'm interested in discussing here.

that’s what I meant but I guess yeah single notes less dissonant than chords.

I meant in general superimposing another harmony over a bass note isn’t super dissonant to my ear, but over the chord it can be.

Honestly when lines are voicelead well this stuff sounds pretty alright regardless

[ragman1]

See, I think you're approaching this on paper, conceptually, theoretically, you're not testing it. The same sub in one tune may sound awful in a different tune!

[pamosmusic]

See, I think you're approaching this on paper, conceptually, theoretically, you're not testing it. The same sub in one tune may sound awful in another tune!

Ragman.

Just because it isn’t recorded at a ballad tempo and posted on someone’s SoundCloud doesn’t mean they haven’t played this stuff.

Practiced it really is a different story. Lots with the diminished subs. Tons with the tritone, quite a bit a minor third up, not so much with the minor third down.

The modal stuff initially, not as much … definitely dominants and accompanying minors related to other targets from the mode, but not some of the majors on there.

[princeplanet]

that’s what I meant but I guess yeah single notes less dissonant than chords.

I meant in general superimposing another harmony over a bass note isn’t super dissonant to my ear, but over the chord it can be.

Honestly when lines are voicelead well this stuff sounds pretty alright regardless

Yeah, I think when you're familiar enough with the sound of a particular "outside" sub, and can prehear it, you can usually go in and out at the right places and make it sound so intentional that the listener simply must accept it. Which is why I think it takes me a long time to really use a new outside idea with confidence.
You can't be tentative with this stuff, in fact, it only seems to really work when you make it sound like it's the easiest thing to play. It's one of the areas that distinguishes pros from intermediates, I think.