Was Charlie Parker the Culprit Behind the Chord-Scales?

[Tal_175]

But if this thread tells us anything, I could just decide that he did say that and we could have a 150 post argument based on that assumption.

Just to clarify, that means you definitely concluded that Charlie Parker couldn't have said in his lifetime that he liked using upper intervals of chords for his melodies, right?

[pamosmusic]

Just to clarify, that means you definitely concluded that Charlie Parker couldn't have said that he liked using upper intervals of chords for his melodies in his lifetime, right?

Nah just that we went on ahead and assumed he did.

But can I ask again for you to cite something in his music that makes this a compelling way of analyzing it?

If we’re arguing about whether this is a useful way of analyzing his music, it might be illuminating to see if used in an analysis of his music.

[Tal_175]

Nah just that we went on ahead and assumed he did.

But can I ask again for you to cite something in his music that makes this a compelling way of analyzing it?

If we’re arguing about whether this is a useful way of analyzing his music, it might be illuminating to see if used in an analysis of his music.

There is probably no remotely interesting player in any era of jazz whose language and every line they played can be satisfactorily analyzed strictly with chord scales. But that's discussion for another thread.

[pamosmusic]

To be fair, i don’t think it’s necessary to emulate the musician’s mental process to learn their idiom. (Obviously in the case of bird it’s hard to know for certain if we are on the right track anyway.)

Well that’s true. I used to take a transcribed lick with a buddy of mine who played trumpet and we would go into a separate practice rooms for an hour and come out and see what we’d each come up with. And it’s really interesting to see how different conclusions (that’s a leap to the third of a chord, no it’s a scalar leap of a sixth) can lead to a totally different vocabulary.

Its like those choose your own adventure books.

Plenty of musicians have used a CST framework when learning bop - the David Baker books being a good example. But Baker’s book focus a lot on the specifics of how to construct bebop lines, similar to Barry Harris.

Thats true. His bebop stuff is pretty interested in the vocabulary as blocks … to the point where I wasn’t sure how to use it when I was a young CST addled high school student.

Not bebop, but have you seen his “The Jazz Style of” series. I got the Coltrane one a while back and it’s pretty wild.

[pamosmusic]

There is probably no remotely interesting player in any era of jazz whose language and everly line they played can be satisfactorily analyzed strictly with chord scales. But that's discussion for another thread.

Okay so to clarify. This is an important insight and illuminating but not worth actually applying to music.

For what it’s worth, if you change your mind, I’m listening. If not, then I guess I was a little confused about this whole endeavor after all.

[Tal_175]

Okay so to clarify. This is an important insight and illuminating but not worth actually applying to music.

For what it’s worth, if you change your mind, I’m listening. If not, then I guess I was a little confused about this whole endeavor after all.

So are you seriously under the impression that one wouldn't be able to find Charlie Parker lines that are consistent with the quote?

[pamosmusic]

So are you seriously under the impression that one wouldn't be able to find a Charlie Parker line that is consistent with the quote?

No but we seem to disagree on what the quote means, so I figured it would be useful to actually see how you would use that information to analyze his actual music. Or … put another way:

I feel like things are getting a bit vague again. It's hard sort these things out if we don't build on specific points.

[Tal_175]

No but we seem to disagree on what the quote means, so I figured it would be useful to actually see how you would use that information to analyze his actual music. Or … put another way:

How to use this information to analyze his music would be a different thread topic though, right? Isn't this thread long enough already? lol.

[pamosmusic]

There’s actually been a quite interesting discussion of this on the other Charlie Parker thread where Guy has been posting some Bird licks and bebop cliches and trying to analyze them using CST (or at least some interval against root analysis) and me and Christian have been rudely berating him from the cheap seats.

At the end of the day he’s settled on a sort of hybrid note-against-chord and chunked melodic analysis that seems downright practical. I’m not sure if that is what you’re after here, though.

[pamosmusic]

How to use this information to analyze his music would be a different thread topic though, right? Isn't this thread long enough already? lol.

The lengths we’ll go to to avoid talking about actual sounds, I guess.

If you start the other thread, I’d read it.

[Tal_175]

There’s actually been a quite interesting discussion of this on the other Charlie Parker thread where Guy has been posting some Bird licks and bebop cliches and trying to analyze them using CST (or at least some interval against root analysis) and me and Christian have been rudely berating him from the cheap seats.

At the end of the day he’s settled on a sort of hybrid note-against-chord and chunked melodic analysis that seems downright practical. I’m not sure if that is what you’re after here, though.

I actually didn't read that thread (not even a single line of it).
There is a bebop good, chord scales bad attitude that I find quite amusing in general. I don't know if that's a running theme of that thread also. But the title was meant to be a tongue in cheek reference to that attitude.

Some people associate chord scales with how it's used by some students of jazz. But I don't think there is a justification of seeing it as more than a unifying framework for some of the common harmonic and melodic elements of jazz. A lot of it has to do with the role the upper extensions play in the choices of chord voicings and improvisational ideas. There is also a bult-in chord in the moment perspective in chord scales when used improvisationally. The Charlie Parker quote shows many parallels with these considerations. That is why I decided to create this thread.

[pamosmusic]

I actually didn't read that thread (not even a single line of it).
There is a bebop good, chord scales bad attitude that I find quite amusing in general. I don't know if that's a running theme of that thread also. But the title was meant to be a tongue in cheek reference to that attitude.

Some people associate chord scales with how it's used by some students of jazz. But I don't think there is a justification of seeing it as more than a unifying framework for some of the common harmonic and melodic elements of jazz. A lot of it has to do with the role the upper extensions play in the choices of chord voicings and improvisational ideas. There is a bult-in chord in the moment perspective also in chord scales when used improvisationally. The Charlie Parker quote shows many parallels to these considerations.

Well I’ve said about sixty five times that I use chord scale theory all the time and don’t think it’s a dirty word at all and even mentioned how I use it. But I usually use it to incorporate ideas I glean from bebop stuff I like. Not really so much to analyze the bebop stuff in the first place. So again. Still curious.

[Christian Miller]

My first response to this was, well that would be ridiculous since Bach didn't say he became alive when he realized that playing upper extensions over chords was what he was hearing all along which is the point of the thread.

But then I remembered that you did say CST existed long before jazz. So maybe you're one of those people who believe Bach used CST after all, lol.


What is your evidence for CST existing long before jazz?

When did I say that?


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[Christian Miller]

If he likes I could start up another JGO account and pretend to be the person Tal is actually arguing against.

Another one for the sock puppet army!


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[pamosmusic]

You know or use it to sound in Ethan’s fantastically snarky terms, a European Jazz Promoter’s version of Bill Evans

Duke Ellington, Bill Evans, and One Night in New York City | The New Yorker

Tbh Chord Scale Theory been around longer than the entire history of jazz before Chord Scale Theory. I’m always puzzled when people make out it’s modern or progressive. It would be like saying improvising on AABA song forms was really progressive in 1970. Says more about the glacial rate of progress in jazz these days. And the basic CST sound is really very humdrum now.

Right here. You’re welcome, Tal.

[Tal_175]

Right here. You’re welcome, Tal.

Glad you twins are now answering your own questions, I don't need to be in the loop.

[pamosmusic]

Glad you twins now answering your own questions, I don't need to be in the loop.

If you insist

[raylinds]

I find this article interesting relative to the quote:

Biddy and Bird: The Evolution of Be-Bop (chasinthebird.com)

[CliffR]

"Chord Scale Theory been around longer than the entire history of jazz before Chord Scale Theory."

This means that chord scale theory has been around for longer than 50% of the entire history of jazz. It does not in any way imply that chord scale theory existed before the history of jazz.

[pamosmusic]

"Chord Scale Theory been around longer than the entire history of jazz before Chord Scale Theory."

This means that chord scale theory has been around for longer than 50% of the entire history of jazz. It does not in any way imply that chord scale theory existed before the history of jazz.

It took me a few readings, but that’s my understanding.

Christian could do with a decent editor.

[Tal_175]

"Chord Scale Theory been around longer than the entire history of jazz before Chord Scale Theory."

This means that chord scale theory has been around for longer than 50% of the entire history of jazz. It does not in any way imply that chord scale theory existed before the history of jazz.

Thanks. I was glancing through the post. I misread it. It sounded like something Christian would say if he was in a contrarian mood. Ha ha.

When did I say that?

You didn't say it. My mistake.

[pamosmusic]

I find this article interesting relative to the quote:

Biddy and Bird: The Evolution of Be-Bop (chasinthebird.com)

This is quite nice, and would support at least the sentiment of the quote, even if it’s a paraphrase or apocryphal.

Im still interested in seeing it applied to the music.

[Christian Miller]

I find this article interesting relative to the quote:

Biddy and Bird: The Evolution of Be-Bop (chasinthebird.com)

I would love to know more detail. I have an idea of what is meant, but it would be nice to have some musical examples… ah well….


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[Tal_175]

I would love to know more detail. I have an idea of what is meant, but it would be nice to have some musical examples… ah well….

I guarantee you, it'll take you guys 20 seconds to find Charlie Parker playing on the upper extension of chords if you look at a couple of tunes instead of moaning about it.

[pamosmusic]

I guarantee you, it'll take you guys 20 seconds to find Charlie Parker playing on the upper extension of chords if you look at a couple of tunes instead of moaning about it.

Again. The question here isn’t “does Bird play upper extensions.” It’s “are chord-scales a useful mode of analysis for his music.”

And that’s an awfully rich vibe from the guy in this discussion who has studiously avoided providing literally any actual musical context thus far.