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o.k., for some reason the party-like character of this topic was not apparent to me, perhaps watching Christian's video will change my perspective on that - but somehow I doubt it.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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08-19-2024 12:43 PM
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Be sure to report back. Originally Posted by Mick-7
… perhaps watching Christian's video will change my perspective on that - but somehow I doubt it.
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Doesn’t really work like that sadly. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Things like CST are really about organising your ideas, the next level up. They aren’t about what to play, because what you actually play is much more specific and granular.
Some people find it useful, but I think it’s more useful for post modal music.
It won’t save you any work… no shortcuts sadly. I know CST is taught as one sometimes, but that’s for beginners really.
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In a few years when I have reached this level of understanding of jazz theory, I'm going to come back to this thread and try to decipher it.
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Not sure that’ll help Originally Posted by raylinds
In a few years when I have reached this level of understanding of jazz theory, I'm going to come back to this thread and try to decipher it.
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You’re not missing much. Just go and check out the records directly. I think I’m saying that (albeit in the most convoluted way possible.) Originally Posted by raylinds
In a few years when I have reached this level of understanding of jazz theory, I'm going to come back to this thread and try to decipher it.
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I do! I enjoy learning theory- I have a lot of 'oh, so that's why the progression goes there', or 'that's why the 5th is flatted' moments, but I really need to hear it to make the connection. I can hear a phrase that has sounded cool to me for years and it is fun to discover why it sounds cool. I have been listening to a lot of Bird for decades- way before I ever tried playing any jazz, so I have a lot of those moments listening to him, but many more moments when I have no idea what he is doing, but I know it sounds incredible. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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A lot of it is really really hip rhythm Originally Posted by raylinds
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About the last argument topic. That's why I like to work scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics. I feel it accurately breaks down melody shape into all possibilities so you can practice and improv more effectively. Yes, chords and intervals are included in scales, but not if you run them straight.
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For what it’s worth, I’m not sure this is to the point Christian was making in the video. I think Mick was making a bit more of a sweeping statement than you are here. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
One of the specific examples Christian gave was C#m7 over G7
So …
G B D F C# E G# B
Off the root … G Ab B C# D E F
So the point of that example being that maybe it’s a chord scale and you can call it Lydian Dominant b2 or Phrygian Dominant #4 or something else but the notes in the scale and other arpeggios in the scale wouldn’t perform the function of the C#m7, which is just a sideslip between Dm7 and Cm7.
Another was the interchangeable Eb and Ebm … trying to get some chord scale relationship out of those would be a little silly and would misunderstand what Bird was probably doing.
Another was using the major third over a minor chord, wherein the motion between the actual structures was the important part, rather than the relationship of each note to the root.
So no one is saying that you can’t practice scales with arpeggios and stuff (I have a page in my practice binder called Do You Really Know That Scale, that has literally hundreds of things a person could do with a scale — Barry Finnerty’s The Serious Jazz Practice Book is a font of cool shit like that) … all they’re saying is that understanding notes as Interval-From-the-Root isn’t always the most useful way about it. And practicing arpeggios as they occur in chord scales is an excellent way to practice but if you aren’t more open to the way they appear in the music, then it’s actually a pretty limited way to go about it.
It’s a both/and thing. Yes play your arpeggios through scales in all the permutations you can. But also don’t kid yourself that that’s even a preponderance of the arpeggio-adjacent material out there. Melodies are cooler than that.
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I see. Addressing more Mick and rp.
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I think rp was kind of on the same page. But yeah, probably mostly Mick. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
This is just probably the bit to watch out for. There is wicked stuff that is super characteristic of bebop and straight-ahead jazz that doesn't fall into the arpeggios included within the usual chord-scales.Yes, chords and intervals are included in scales, but not if you run them straight.
Or, alternatively, you'd have to be extraordinarily proficient with some fairly absurd chord-scales (Lydian Dominant b2, or some such) and even then you'd have to know the specific device anyway to make it work how you want. So just knowing the specific device would probably be the efficiency in this case.
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I've noticed that about the interesting harmony in the bebop lines from using non formulaic notes.
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Yeah I mean the Em7 Ebm7 Dm7 thing appears in Barry’s teaching as a thing you can do without any explanation.
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He also does the Dm7 Ebm7 Em7 … side slip from the ii up to the iii (rootless maj9) Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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