Fretting or Picking Hand - Which Do You Find More Difficult?

[pamosmusic]

You can change the volume of notes with the techniques you mentioned, and tone a little bit (it's more controlled by the left hand)

Hold on now.

So you're playing an E at the fifth fret second string with your first finger. You switch to your second finger. Did you change the tone? You press a little harder. Change the tone?

Now put your pick by the neck and play the same E. Move your pick an inch toward the bridge and then play again. Another inch and play again, and so on until you hit the bridge.

Angle the pick differently against the string.

And how does one play an accent with the left hand again?

[BreckerFan]

I think technique/mechanics and use of technique are being conflated.

My point was intended to be about the mechanics of each hand. I don't think there are as many mechanical nuances for the left as for the right hand, or as much possibility of using different mechanics for the same action.

Think about the various picking motions that can be required to pick a phrase: usx, dsx, dbx, sweep. These motions themselves are not very intuitive, as evidenced by the fact that guitarists didn't really identify them (except sweeps) until relatively recently. Now think about all the different ways people orient their picking hand to achieve these motions. These are fairly complex movements, and it can be challenging to master even one, nevermind all of them. And then you can add in all the different types of articulation that Peter mentioned.

Now think similarly about the mechanics of fretting. You can fret a single note, bar, hammer on, pull off, slide, bend, vibrato. I would say, with the exception of vibrato, there's really only one way to do all of these, and they're all more intuitive than right hand movements.

You bring up that once right hand mechanics are mastered, the left hand becomes the focus, but what about the left hand? It's not the basic mechanics of fretting, it's the use of those mechanics. We learn different combinations of those fundamental techniques, but the techniques are the same. But the different left hand combinations may require challenging right hand combinations as well.

So my reasoning is that the basic mechanics of the right hand are less intuitive and more difficult to master than those of the left hand. Of course that is subjective. But again, empirically, it's much more common for someone to have a lot of left hand facility and not as much right hand than vice versa.

[BreckerFan]

Hold on now.

So you're playing an E at the fifth fret second string with your first finger. You switch to your second finger. Did you change the tone? You press a little harder. Change the tone?

Now put your pick by the neck and play the same E. Move your pick an inch toward the bridge and then play again. Another inch and play again, and so on until you hit the bridge.

Angle the pick differently against the string.

And how does one play an accent with the left hand again?

Yeah I agree with this. Your left hand is not in direct contact with the resonating part of the string, but the right hand is. The only ability your left hand has to change the tone is to change how the string is interacting with the fret, or to change the pitch. But you can't add more bass to a note by changing which finger you're playing with.

[pamosmusic]

I think technique/mechanics and use of technique are being conflated.

My point was intended to be about the mechanics of each hand. I don't think there are as many mechanical nuances for the left as for the right hand, or as much possibility of using different mechanics for the same action.

Think about the various picking motions that can be required to pick a phrase: usx, dsx, dbx, sweep. These motions themselves are not very intuitive, as evidenced by the fact that guitarists didn't really identify them (except sweeps) until relatively recently. Now think about all the different ways people orient their picking hand to achieve these motions. These are fairly complex movements, and it can be challenging to master even one, nevermind all of them. And then you can add in all the different types of articulation that Peter mentioned.

Now think similarly about the mechanics of fretting. You can fret a single note, bar, hammer on, pull off, slide, bend, vibrato. I would say, with the exception of vibrato, there's really only one way to do all of these, and they're all more intuitive than right hand movements.

You bring up that once right hand mechanics are mastered, the left hand becomes the focus, but what about the left hand? It's not the basic mechanics of fretting, it's the use of those mechanics. We learn different combinations of those fundamental techniques, but the techniques are the same. But the different left hand combinations may require challenging right hand combinations as well.

So my reasoning is that the basic mechanics of the right hand are less intuitive and more difficult to master than those of the left hand. Of course that is subjective. But again, empirically, it's much more common for someone to have a lot of left hand facility and not as much right hand than vice versa.

Yeah these are all good points. More interesting than mine, anyway

[Litterick]

If I don't bother my picking hand, it does not bother me. If I ignore my fretting hand, it demands attention.

[Christian Miller]

I think technique/mechanics and use of technique are being conflated.

My point was intended to be about the mechanics of each hand. I don't think there are as many mechanical nuances for the left as for the right hand, or as much possibility of using different mechanics for the same action.

Think about the various picking motions that can be required to pick a phrase: usx, dsx, dbx, sweep. These motions themselves are not very intuitive, as evidenced by the fact that guitarists didn't really identify them (except sweeps) until relatively recently. Now think about all the different ways people orient their picking hand to achieve these motions. These are fairly complex movements, and it can be challenging to master even one, nevermind all of them. And then you can add in all the different types of articulation that Peter mentioned.

Now think similarly about the mechanics of fretting. You can fret a single note, bar, hammer on, pull off, slide, bend, vibrato. I would say, with the exception of vibrato, there's really only one way to do all of these, and they're all more intuitive than right hand movements.

You bring up that once right hand mechanics are mastered, the left hand becomes the focus, but what about the left hand? It's not the basic mechanics of fretting, it's the use of those mechanics. We learn different combinations of those fundamental techniques, but the techniques are the same. But the different left hand combinations may require challenging right hand combinations as well.

So my reasoning is that the basic mechanics of the right hand are less intuitive and more difficult to master than those of the left hand. Of course that is subjective. But again, empirically, it's much more common for someone to have a lot of left hand facility and not as much right hand than vice versa.

Oh I don't know, I see quite a bit of poor left hand technique even in some very accomplished players. Here's a horror from my YouTube feed.

(TBF the camera angle is probably making it look especially egregious)

I'm not sure how you get to be a player at this level and not be pulled up on something like this. I don't think this would happen in the classical world?

TBH, I feel this is a case of what can happen when a player adopts a four fingered classical technique but has't understood the key physical principles of what makes it work, or apparently received sufficient instruction in how to healthily use the left hand when playing technically demanding music.

Of course none of this is a criticism of the musical side of Vitchev's playing - he's great. And he's certainly not the only advanced guitarist I've seen do this sort of thing. And maybe they'll be fine and I'm being OTT. That said, I think it would be easy to solve this stuff with a few hours a week and ensure long term playing health.

OTOH I don't think you'd see a schooled classical player doing stuff like this - so perhaps there's an argument that jazz guitarists aren't focussing enough on the left hand, either in a learning or teaching capacity if stuff like this getting through. And yet I feel guitarists talk a lot about pick technique.

[EastwoodMike]

I am still discovering so many aspects I can improve or learn on both hands that I cannot possibly say one is better than the other for at least one more lifetime. Current challenge is to activate the pinky in both to be more individually useful.

[GuyBoden]

Yes, I've often wondered if "Hristo Vitchev" has had any finger/hand problems due to his stretchy technique. He's a great player.

[pamosmusic]

Oh I don't know, I see quite a bit of poor left hand technique even in some very accomplished players. Here's a horror from my YouTube feed.

(TBF the camera angle is probably making it look especially egregious)

I'm not sure how you get to be a player at this level and not be pulled up on something like this. I don't think this would happen in the classical world?

TBH, I feel this is a case of what can happen when a player adopts a four fingered classical technique but has't understood the key physical principles of what makes it work, or apparently received sufficient instruction in how to healthily use the left hand when playing technically demanding music.

Of course none of this is a criticism of the musical side of Vitchev's playing - he's great. And he's certainly not the only advanced guitarist I've seen do this sort of thing. And maybe they'll be fine and I'm being OTT. That said, I think it would be easy to solve this stuff with a few hours a week and ensure long term playing health.

OTOH I don't think you'd see a schooled classical player doing stuff like this - so perhaps there's an argument that jazz guitarists aren't focussing enough on the left hand, either in a learning or teaching capacity if stuff like this getting through. And yet I feel guitarists talk a lot about pick technique.

What are some other ways to botch the left hand mechanics?

Ones I see fairly often:

Extension of wrist
Flexion of wrist
Gripping too hard with the thumb
Pressing too hard with the fingers
lifting too high with the fingers

Some things that lead to bad wrist position:

thumb over the neck
small barre without flattening small knuckle
excessive stretching

[James W]

What I meant is that I've perfected it about as much as I can short of matching Johnny Smith's proficiency.

A corollary to that might be playing finger style as well as Matteo Mancuso. To quote Clint Eastwood in the movie Dirty Harry, "A man's got to know his limitations."

So what you in fact meant was that you have not perfected it at all.

I agree with Breckerfan. The existence of string hopping doesn't really have an analogue for the fretting hand. I think you can tell much easier from looking whether what someone is doing the wrong thing with their fretting hand than you can with using a plectrum.

There are loads of different right hand mechanics, even if we just restrict ourselves to using a plectrum - and these, along with an approach to learning them, are a relatively recent phenomenon.

[supersoul]

Horn players work on their sound by playing long tones. They'll just play a single note and work on having a consistent tone at different dynamics, different attacks, changing dynamics, consistent timbre or changing timbre. Sometimes I do the same thing on guitar; I'll just play one note in different ways. Playing quietly without the finger noise of the finger/pick brushing on the string. I mean, it's a little thing but all those things matter to me.

A major way the fretting hand can affect tone is with vibrato. That's something to pay attention to and practice. Intonation, as well.

I also spend time figuring out the best way to finger things so they don't sound awkward. It's nice to have chord shapes that can be altered and/or changed to another chord. Being able to play top notes with my pinky while holding down notes with the other fingers, for instance.

With both hands it's important to find ways of playing that don't cause strain. They're both important to be a good musician.

[princeplanet]

Horn players are also obsessed with mouth pieces, reeds, embochure etc. Listen to them talk sax (or trumpet) to each other, it's never about the fingers reaching for the notes. The mouthpiece or reed for them is like the plectrum for us. It's the contact point between audiation and sound creation, it's your voice.
And yes, I too took it for granted for too many years, having to undo habits that were inhibiting the picking technique I didn't realise I required for the kind Jazz guitar playing I later aspired to. Which is the reason I think many of us probably feel the right hand is still playing catch up.

[AllanAllen]

I agree, nobody thinks the right hand matters until they hit the plateau. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you haven't hit it yet.

[Mick-7]

Hold on now. So you're playing an E at the fifth fret second string with your first finger. You switch to your second finger. Did you change the tone? You press a little harder. Change the tone?

Yes, I can change the tone by varying the amount of my finger pressure and moving my finger on the fingerboard.

Now put your pick by the neck and play the same E. Move your pick an inch toward the bridge and then play again. Another inch and play again, and so on until you hit the bridge.

o.k., you got me there, I admit I don't move my picking hand around much to vary the tone, do you?

And how does one play an accent with the left hand again?

Again, by changing the amount of pressure on the string, the force at which my finger strikes the fingerboard, a hammer on is a form of that.

Now think similarly about the mechanics of fretting. You can fret a single note, bar, hammer on, pull off, slide, bend, vibrato. I would say, with the exception of vibrato, there's really only one way to do all of these, and they're all more intuitive than right hand movements.

I don't agree with this, subtle variations in these techniques are possible, if there was only one way to do them, everyone's slurs, slides, hammer ons, pull offs, bends, vibratos, etc., would sound alike, obviously they don't.

So what you in fact meant was that you have not perfected it at all.

No, I meant exactly what I said, it's not perfect (what is?) but it's usually good enough to achieve my desired ends, if I was dissatisfied with it, I'd work on it.

[pamosmusic]

Zoinks, Mick. This is pretty wild stuff.

Yes, I can change the tone by varying the amount of my finger pressure and moving my finger on the fret.

Apologies for being blunt, but this is absolute nonsense. This is just the basic mechanics of the guitar. Your fretting finger doesn't produce sound on the string. The ringing length terminates at the metal fret.

So beyond the fact that you'll get a buzzy, weak sound when you don't press down hard enough, all you're going to do by pressing down harder is raise your likelihood of tendonitis. Especially when we're comparing this to ... you know ... pick speed.

o.k., you got me there, I admit I don't move my picking hand around much to vary the tone, do you?

Yes all the time. It's far and away the most significant tool in the box for changing the way the guitar sounds without using knobs. The sound changes dramatically depending on where you play. This is the literal reason why your tone is brighter from the bridge pickup. It's common enough in classical guitar that it has a name -- again, that's ponticello for "at the bridge" and dolce for "sweetly," meaning at the neck. So you're talking about the difference in tone based on finger pressure, but this isn't a tool in your toolbox?

Again, by changing the amount of pressure on the string, a hammer on is a form of that.

So you're saying you can change how loud a note is based on how hard you press the string down? This is either total nonsense, or you're not certain what an accent is. A hammer, for example, would be a form of slur. Not an accent. Though it would be an example of one narrow instance where you could affect the volume of a note using your left hand. Mean that -- if you're hammering already -- then how hard you hammer would effect the volume of the note. That's because, in that narrow case, the sound is produced by the string striking the fret, rather than the pick striking the ringing length of the string, which terminates at the fret.

No, I meant exactly what I said, it's not perfect (what is?) but it's usually good enough to achieve my desired ends, if I was dissatisfied with it, I'd work on it.

I'm going to be honest with you here. Based on this post, I think you're probably in the Don't Know What You Don't Know camp on this one.

Or in Allen's words:

I agree, nobody thinks the right hand matters until they hit the plateau. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you haven't hit it yet.

[Mick-7]

Apologies for being blunt, but this is absolute nonsense. This is just the basic mechanics of the guitar. Your fretting finger doesn't produce sound on the string. The ringing length terminates at the metal fret.

I can produce sound on the string solely with my left hand without picking the string at all, can't you? (Obviously the lighter the strings, the greater capacity there is to do this). And I was responding to your suggestion that one can only accent a note by picking it harder.

[James W]

No, I meant exactly what I said, it's not perfect (what is?) but it's usually good enough to achieve my desired ends, if I was dissatisfied with it, I'd work on it.

For the record what you said was:

Once you perfect your right hand technique

To which I asked whether you were speaking from experience and you said yes. Ergo, your right hand technique is perfected.

Now you're telling me that it's not in fact perfect, but that you're not dissatisfied with it and so do not work on it. That must be nice. I personally work on my technique every day. Some of us need to keep our chops ticking over nicely. Maybe you ought to too? I mean, the one small clip I've heard of you playing doesn't exactly warrant the (self-)satisfaction that some of these posts of yours seem to be imbued with.

[Mick-7]

I agree, nobody thinks the right hand matters until they hit the plateau. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you haven't hit it yet.

Which plataeu are you thinking of? There can be many.

[pamosmusic]

I can produce sound on the string solely with my left hand without picking the string at all, can't you? (Obviously the lighter the strings, the greater capacity there is to do this). And I was responding to your suggestion that one can only accent a note by picking it harder.

Yeah Mick. Obviously.

And also that’s not what you were responding to. You responding to me asking you to clarify that you can change the tone by changing the position of your finger inside the fret

And what you said was this:

Yes, I can change the tone by varying the amount of my finger pressure and moving my finger on the fingerboard.

If you are talking about only in those instances when you’re hammering on then yeah okay sure.

[Mick-7]

That must be nice. I personally work on my technique every day. Some of us need to keep our chops ticking over nicely. Maybe you ought to too? I mean, the one small clip I've heard of you playing doesn't exactly warrant the (self-)satisfaction that some of these posts of yours seem to be imbued with.

My comments should not to be taken literally, we all have weaknesses, but I consider my picking ability to be too far down on the list of mine to warrant much of my attention. As far as recordings I've posted, the quality (especially my tone) varies a lot and can depend on factors other than my technique or playing ability, e.g., I've posted at least one recording played on an acoustic-electric guitar with very high action, when my other guitars were unavailable or in the shop.

[pamosmusic]

My comments should not to be taken literally,

well I suppose that clears things up

[Mick-7]

You responding to me asking you to clarify that you can change the tone by changing the position of your finger inside the fret

And what you said was this: If you are talking about only in those instances when you’re hammering on then yeah okay sure.

Well, I meant "tone" in a broader sense, not simply bass/treble, I guess I should be more concise with my language.

[pamosmusic]

Well, I meant "tone" in a broader sense, not simply bass/treble, I guess I should be more concise with my language.

What?

Tone in the broader sense? What does that mean?

[Mick-7]

What?

Tone in the broader sense? What does that mean?

Altering the tone via left hand techniques: making minute pitch variations, dampening or striking a string, playing notes on open strings versus fretting them, playing harmonics, etc. And one can vary the treble/bass of notes strictly with the left hand, e.g., play the note B on the 14th fret of the A string and then play open B string note.

[pamosmusic]

Altering the tone via left hand techniques: making minute pitch variations, dampening or striking a string, playing notes on open strings versus fretting them, playing harmonics, etc.

Okay well pitch variations are pitch variations, not tonal variations. The same way I wouldn’t say that I can vary the pitch based on how I pick.

Dampening a string … fair enough. A mute. This can also be done with the right hand. Often written as a pizz in guitar music.

Open strings versus fretted strings is a different thing. Not using your fretting hand isn’t really changing the tone with your fretting. On top of which it’s limited to a few pitches. It’s like if I said Jimmy Page can change his sound so much with the pick, then cited his use of the violin bow.

Harmonics, I guess okay.

But once again for the kids in the back, fundamental tone production is in the right hand. The pick or finger strikes and drives the string. The things you’re describing are essentially effects. On top of which, every single one of the techniques you mentioned has something in common — you can completely change the way it sounds based on where and how you pick.

It’s like a saxophone player working on how they press the keys down to improve their tone and saying their embouchure and breath support aren’t as important because they’re already satisfactory for what they’re doing.