Fretting or Picking Hand - Which Do You Find More Difficult?

[Mick-7]

Okay well pitch variations are pitch variations, not tonal variations.

Not necessarily, the distinction between the two can be quite subtle, the pitch of a note changes slightly when you pick it in front of the bridge versus near the neck.

Open strings versus fretted strings is a different thing. Not using your fretting hand isn’t really changing the tone with your fretting. On top of which it’s limited to a few pitches. It’s like if I said Jimmy Page can change his sound so much with the pick, then cited his use of the violin bow.

Forget open strings, the tone of any note can be varied by playing it on a different string.

[pamosmusic]

Not necessarily, the distinction between the two can be quite subtle, the pitch of a note changes slightly when you pick it in front of the bridge versus near the neck.

At some point here I’m going to need you to come with receipts.

Pics or it didn’t happen.

(picks or it didn’t happen?)

[AllanAllen]

Which plataeu are you thinking of? There can be many.

The one that makes you pay attention to your right hand because it’s messing up what the left is trying to do.

[supersoul]

Not necessarily, the distinction between the two can be quite subtle, the pitch of a note changes slightly when you pick it in front of the bridge versus near the neck.

but the sound of a note changes a lot when you pick in front of the bridge versus near the neck.


and it's not even true that the pitch will be different. Same pitch, different timbre.

[James W]

but the sound of a note changes a lot when you pick in front of the bridge versus near the neck.


and it's not even true that the pitch will be different. Same pitch, different timbre.

Yep - sul ponticello versus sul tasto.

[Mick-7]

but the sound of a note changes a lot when you pick in front of the bridge versus near the neck.

and it's not even true that the pitch will be different. Same pitch, different timbre.

It's a microtone like on a fretless instrument, not sure if it would be apparent on a recording. I don't have an oscilloscope.

But it could be an "aural hallucination" -- Does timbre affect pitch?

[James W]

It's a microtone like on a fretless instrument, not sure if it would be apparent on a recording. I don't have an oscilloscope.

Eh? No microtones involved in switching between sul pont and sul tasto - and the timbral difference between these should be audible on a recording. I certainly can tell when for example Julian Bream picks nearer the bridge.

[pamosmusic]

It's a microtone like on a fretless instrument, not sure if it would be apparent on a recording. I don't have an oscilloscope.

But it could be an "aural hallucination" -- Does timbre affect pitch?

Mick, this is getting a little bit silly.

So on this in particular, the abstract says that they are measuring perception of pitch by musicians and non-musicians and what they determined was that the perception of pitch changes enough with timbre to make tuning an issue, and that it's consistent across musicians and non-musicians.

That fact is unremarkable. It's why big bands work with a relatively small number of instruments, and why in a larger group like a wind band or full orchestra, the orchestration can really make or break. Having trumpets and trombones voice a chord will sound regal and majestic and having trumpet, bassoon, and glockenspiel voice the same chord will sound eerie and a little off. That doesn't mean the objective pitch changes on this instrument, let alone enough to be perceptible when playing.

But more to the point, it sounds a bit like you were spouting off and are scrambling for stuff to try and support the thing you said that goes beyond your experience of the thing you're spouting off about. Which I gather mostly from your citing an academic article to support what you said about playing at the neck and bridge, rather shortly after you said this:

o.k., you got me there, I admit I don't move my picking hand around much to vary the tone, do you?

[Mick-7]

So on this in particular, the abstract says that they are measuring perception of pitch by musicians and non-musicians and what they determined was that the perception of pitch changes enough with timbre to make tuning an issue, and that it's consistent across musicians and non-musicians.

I uploaded a pdf of the full study (I found it interesting). The question it was attempting to answer is "do differences in the timbre of a tone affect listeners recognition of its pitch." The conclusion was that they do, and that the difference noted can be measured in microtones - pitches that sound relatively flatter or sharper than the standard pitch.

This agrees with my statement that one may perceive a difference in pitch between a tone produced by picking a guitar string right in front of the bridge versus picking that same string right behind the neck. I would think that this pitch variance could range from very small (i.e., a microtone) to none at all depending on the instrument and the aural acuity of the listener (and/or bias of the listener, which I think they said occurred in 20-40% of the tests).

In the introduction to the study it said that pitch measurement is probabilistic, I quote: "The pitch of a sound is often identified as its fundamental frequency or the frequency of vibration, e.g., the A4 is worldwide set to 440 Hz. Still, other attributes of the sound, such as its sound pressure level (SPL), spectral composition, duration, and the simultaneous occurrence of other sounds are found to affect perceived pitch. Therefore, the American National Standards Institute defines pitch as an auditory attribute of sounds that allows sounds to be ordered on a scale from low to high but does not represent an objectively measurable parameter."

[pamosmusic]

I uploaded a pdf of the full study (I found it interesting). The question it was attempting to answer is "do differences in the timbre of a tone affect listeners recognition of its pitch." The conclusion was that they do, and that the difference noted can be measured in microtones - pitches that sound relatively flatter or sharper than the standard pitch.

This agrees with my statement that one may perceive a difference in pitch between a tone produced by picking a guitar string right in front of the bridge versus picking that same string right behind the neck. I would think that this pitch variance could range from very small (i.e., a microtone) to none at all depending on the instrument and the aural acuity of the listener (or bias of the listener, which I think they said occurred in 20-40% of the tests).

In the introduction to the study it said that pitch measurement is subjectively probabilistic, I quote: "the American National Standards Institute defines pitch as an auditory attribute of sounds that allows sounds to be ordered on a scale from low to high but does not represent an objectively measurable parameter," which is a formal way of saying that the timbre of a tone can alter one's perception of its pitch.

And you're so deep in the weeds on this particular technique, which you already said you don't use, that we've forgotten why we're here, which was that you seem to be arguing that the left hand has more to do with tone and timbre than the right.

*** I'd also note that "standard pitch" is a bit of a loaded phrase, especially with respect to "intonation" but I'll leave the temperament stuff to Christian.

[Mick-7]

Actually the train ride to Weedville started with my reply to BreckerFan, when I said, "how many ways can you pick a note?" It went off the rails after that. Fretting or Picking Hand - Which Do You Find More Difficult?

Sorry 'bout that.

[pamosmusic]

Actually the train ride to Weedville started with my reply to BreckerFan, when I said, "how many ways can you pick a note?" It went off the rails after that. Fretting or Picking Hand - Which Do You Find More Difficult?

Sorry 'bout that.

well I probably should’ve just deferred to the guy who’s got his picking together as good as it can be short of Johnny smith. So I’ll own my part of this as well.

[ruger9]

I voted fretting hand, because if a wrong note is played, it's the fretting hand's fault LOL.

But when you start talking about speed, I'd say the picking hand is more difficult for me. They are BOTH difficult, LOL, but the picking hand a little more so.

[jameslovestal]

I agree, nobody thinks the right hand matters until they hit the plateau. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you haven't hit it yet.

I agree, but then I learned to play violin as a child. Once I moved to guitar it was fairly simple for me to adapt my violin left hand techniques on an instrument with frets. My focus was mainly on learning to play scales in all 5 positions in multiple keys, and all the "necessary" moveable chord grips. I only used very basic alternate picking. My practicing was focused on committing to muscle memory left hand "stuff". Thus I was able to play jazz standards without that much difficulty, but my right had technique was still very limited and I sounded sloppy. It was website that got me to focus on my right hand and practicing exercises that solely help one improve their right had sound.

[ruger9]

o.k., you got me there, I admit I don't move my picking hand around much to vary the tone, do you?
.

All. The. Time. Constantly. It's just another aspect of expression, just as picking hard or soft is.

I saw someone mention microtones. Again, all the time. But I'm a bender.

[Christian Miller]

What are some other ways to botch the left hand mechanics?

Ones I see fairly often:

Extension of wrist
Flexion of wrist
Gripping too hard with the thumb
Pressing too hard with the fingers
lifting too high with the fingers

Some things that lead to bad wrist position:

thumb over the neck
small barre without flattening small knuckle
excessive stretching

These issues all arise from trying to play the guitar like a nerd of course.

Thumb over solves wrist issues, it doesn’t create them. I would go as far to say that it’s healthier. It does however make it hard to fret with your fingertips which may be either a bug or a feature depending. For rhythm guitarists it’s a bit of a feature. Also as I’ve pointed out a squillion times a bunch of the classic jazz players were more flat fingered thumb over players.

But then of course you can’t play nerdy stuff like Bach two part inventions and Holdsworth solos. So …. Be careful out there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

These issues all arise from trying to play the guitar like a nerd of course.

Thumb over solves wrist issues, it doesn’t create them. It does however make it hard to fret with your fingertips which may be either a bug or a feature depending on how cool you are .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nah man that’s dangerous talk.* Though I should’ve said “sometimes” with that.

It really depends on hand shape and stuff.

Jimi Hendrix has more or less a straight wrist.

When I put my thumb over the neck my wrist looks exactly like typist wrist which is why people who work at desks wear hand braces and buy ergonomic keyboards. When I had carpal tunnel issues the physical therapist said flexion (the forward bend) is probably worse for a guitarist, but that you have to be really really careful with extension (the bend back) too.

You know I’m a partisan on this one but I don’t really tell people not to use their thumb unless their wrist looks bad when they do. I also don’t intentionally give people things that would require it.

*okay maybe dangerous is a strong word

[Christian Miller]

Nah man that’s dangerous talk.* Though I should’ve said “sometimes” with that.

It really depends on hand shape and stuff.

Jimi Hendrix has more or less a straight wrist.

When I put my thumb over the neck my wrist looks exactly like typist wrist which is why people who work at desks wear hand braces and buy ergonomic keyboards.

When I had carpal tunnel issues the physical therapist said flexion (the forward bend) is probably worse for a guitarist, but that you have to be really really careful with extension (the bend back) too.

You know I’m a partisan on this one but I don’t really tell people not to use their thumb unless their wrist looks bad when they do. I also don’t intentionally give people things that would require it.

*okay maybe dangerous is a strong word

Fair dos.

If you start with a thumb behind posture and then move the thumb up you will bend the wrist as described. That's more like lapsed classical technique.

If you grab the neck in your hand, have the neck resting in there (ie the very first thing most of tell students not to do) then the wrist is straight. I don't actually teach this to beginners, you'll be pleased to know, although I can't see that if you start with grabbing the neck in your hand that you would bend your wrist. But kids are constantly finding remarkable new ways to contort themselves when playing, so I'm open to the possibility.

[pamosmusic]

Fair dos.

If you start with a thumb behind posture and then move the thumb up you will bend the wrist as described. That's more like lapsed classical technique.

If you grab the neck in your hand, have the neck resting in there (ie the very first thing most of tell students not to do) then the wrist is straight. I don't actually teach this to beginners, you'll be pleased to know, although I can't see that if you start with grabbing the neck in your hand that you would bend your wrist. But kids are constantly finding remarkable new ways to contort themselves when playing, so I'm open to the possibility.

Yeah probably because you'd start with that violin pronation a little more with the fingers?

These issues all arise from trying to play the guitar like a nerd of course.

It must be really refreshing for you to be the cool guy for a change. I'm glad I can give you that.

[BreckerFan]

I'm not sure anyone in this thread, or tbh on this forum, can be accusing anyone else of being a nerd lol.

[Christian Miller]

It must be really refreshing for you to be the cool guy for a change. I'm glad I can give you that.

Unfortunately I also play the guitar like a massive nerd. Only not very well, because my little finger wibbles around. It is disgusting to look upon.

[Mick-7]

Unfortunately I also play the guitar like a massive nerd. Only not very well, because my little finger wibbles around. It is disgusting to look upon.

You could try the Barney Kessel trick of draping a table napkin over your fingerboard (to cover your hand) while you're performing?

At a workshop, Howard Roberts claimed that Barney did this when he went to his gigs, supposedly so that other guitar players could not see what he was doing and steal his licks.

It must be really refreshing for you (i.e., Christian) to be the cool guy for a change. I'm glad I can give you that.

That didn't last long, did it? Christian immediately inserted his wobbly little finger into the conversation.

[AllanAllen]

I'm not sure anyone in this thread, or tbh on this forum, can be accusing anyone else of being a nerd lol.

We're all in the same glass house.

[Christian Miller]

How very dare you

[BreckerFan]

No guys trust me, we're not like those nerdy jazz guitar forum members who analyze the minute details of right and left hand technique. We're the cool jazz guitar forum member who analyze the minute details of right and left hand technique. Those other guys are total losers.