Fusion Jazz Guitar Gear?

[christianm77]

I agree 100%. Very hard for me to put Frisell, Lage or Moreno in "fusion". I think "modern" guitar players, which probably started with Metheny, are very different from "fusion", which is very specific and always very Holdsworth inspired, to my ears.

Funny thing, the same thing happens with "jazz" itself, by being so broad it ends up being mixed with lots of stuff that are very far from jazz. There's some "jazz festivals" where you can see Eric Clapton or Katie Melua on the schedule!

Sure. I mean I’ve been listening to Nir Felder‘s Golden Age. Some of that is almost indie rock to my ears. I think Nir represents a direction I’d like to investigate in my own playing a bit.

Julian Lage plays something which is certainly a fusion of jazz and rock but I couldn’t slot it into a mid 80s idea of fusion. And with Lage there’s a definite Gypsy jazz/western swing vibe in there. Vis a vis my previous comment I find it very resonant to hear contemporary jazz guitar playing with that accent.

OTOH I think the fusioney fusion guys - Martin Miller and Tom Quayle for instance - don’t seem to be doing much on the live band scene. Which is a shame. But instrumental fusion is kind of a separate thing from modern jazz now, although I hear all kinds of jazz in both those player’s lines. However they get a bit fetishised as chops guys.

So that type of fusion is a bit limited in terms of a scene. Yes - even in comparison to contemporary jazz :-)

I play with a guy who knows Guthrie Govan pretty well and says he just loves to play pub gigs but rarely gets asked. Hard to believe.

[christianm77]

In terms of the jazz scene itself I feel practically any non-classical instrumental live music ends up here.

An example might be Neil Cowley. Cowley is very quick to distance himself from the idea of being a jazz musician, and his music involves little or no improvisation. But he is booked in at jazz festivals because it’s piano bass and drums and has a groove.

I like his music btw, not a criticism.

I get in to arguments when I say that there should be a separate space where people can concentrate on bop, straightahead etc. That there is a place for the mainstream jazz club. People think I’m being a reactionary.

But I’m not - because the alternative sort of eclectic fusion space is very interesting to me as a musician.

But: it’s perfectly possible to go a jazz festival and not hear any jazz which swings on the old sense. Which is a shame because in my experience live audiences dig straightahead when it is really swinging.

Anyway I have no desire to restart any discussion on that. I like music.

[John A.]

In terms of the jazz scene itself I feel practically any non-classical instrumental live music ends up here.

An example might be Neil Cowley. Cowley is very quick to distance himself from the idea of being a jazz musician, and his music involves little or no improvisation. But he is booked in at jazz festivals because it’s piano bass and drums and has a groove.

I like his music btw, not a criticism.

I get in to arguments when I say that there should be a separate space where people can concentrate on bop, straightahead etc. That there is a place for the mainstream jazz club. People think I’m being a reactionary.

But I’m not - because the alternative sort of eclectic fusion space is very interesting to me as a musician.

But: it’s perfectly possible to go a jazz festival and not hear any jazz which swings on the old sense. Which is a shame because in my experience live audiences dig straightahead when it is really swinging.

Anyway I have no desire to restart any discussion on that. I like music.

IME Europeans care a lot more about the minutiae of sub-genres than Americans, and tend to be pretty surprised at the degree to which American musicians genre hop. I go to a club. One night I might hear somebody very old school doing straightahead, piano/horn based standards; another night, I might hear someone playing something very edgy, loud, and funk-driven; another night, an organ group; still another night someone blending swing, straight 1/8, and "world music" rhythms with a blend of electric and acoustic instruments. All in the same space. Maybe some of the same people in different combinations, probably Bill Stewart on drums with all of them. Completely normal hereabouts.

John

[TedBPhx]

Yet another great thread that furthers my knowledge of jazz guitar and its ever expanding possibilities.

Thanks, guys!

[christianm77]

IME Europeans care a lot more about the minutiae of sub-genres than Americans, and tend to be pretty surprised at the degree to which American musicians genre hop. I go to a club. One night I might hear somebody very old school doing straightahead, piano/horn based standards; another night, I might hear someone playing something very edgy, loud, and funk-driven; another night, an organ group; still another night someone blending swing, straight 1/8, and "world music" rhythms with a blend of electric and acoustic instruments. All in the same space. Maybe some of the same people in different combinations, probably Bill Stewart on drums with all of them. Completely normal hereabouts.

John

Yes I think this is absolutely the case. I try to be like that. Well without Bill Stewart drums....

[Rhythmisking]

Leaving aside abstract discussions on what is and isn't 'this' or 'that'...

I call what I play "melodic fusion" because I don't know what else to call it. Rock players tell me it's jazz and jazz players tell me it's certainly not jazz. I play what I like and don't care beyond that, but it's more Metheny/Ponty than Bitches Brew/Inner Mounting Flame. I like fun chords, odd time signatures and nice melodies. If non-musicians ask I tell them it's jazz. If musicians ask, I send them to my Reverb Nation page (Paul Strom Songs | ReverbNation) and say "My stuff sounds like this...".

Per Jack's original question, my favorite guitar for what I call fusion is my old Telecaster Deluxe (not Deluxe Telecaster -there's a difference) from '75. It's old Wide-Range humbuckers have a unique combination of brightness, fatness and growl that can be sweet or edgy and cuts through a mix in the nicest way. Currently using an Allen Accomplice (Blackface DR clone) and a odd bunch of pedals that are mostly 'always on' and give me the sound I like and I don't change it.

[newsense]

I play with a guy who knows Guthrie Govan pretty well and says he just loves to play pub gigs but rarely gets asked. Hard to believe.

Well, there's a few pubs I'd like to invite him to.

Er...., would he want to be paid ?

[christianm77]

Well, there's a few pubs I'd like to invite him to.

Er...., would he want to be paid ?

Hah. This stuff is never about payment. It's always about the quality of the music and musicians, and playing with friends etc.

Money gigs are money gigs, fun gigs are fun gigs.

[sgcim]

I like a few of the Canterbury Scene bands Dave Stewart was in; National Health, Hatfield and the North, and Egg. I also like the first version of IF, a British jazz-rock band featuring Dick Morrissey and Terry Smith.
I also listen to Musica Urbana, a band from Barcelona led by Joan Albert Amargos.

[christianm77]

What about Back Door?

[newsense]

Hah. This stuff is never about payment. It's always about the quality of the music and musicians, and playing with friends etc.

Money gigs are money gigs, fun gigs are fun gigs.

Guthrie really is from a different planet. Is there any style he can't play ? I remember being gobsmacked seeing him backing Dizzy Rascal at Glastonbury a few years ago.

[christianm77]

No guitar :-)

[sgcim]

No guitar :-)

Just another out of tune soprano sax player.

[christianm77]

Guthrie really is from a different planet. Is there any style he can't play ? I remember being gobsmacked seeing him backing Dizzy Rascal at Glastonbury a few years ago.

Yeah it’s pretty cool. I think Guthrie is pretty serious about his country picking afaik.

I think Rob Updegraff plays pretty badass here too. Rob is also a top modern jazz player, and funk player.

Guthrie’s great, but it’s not just the stars who are MFs... I actually got a bit pissed off by some of the comments on the vid haha. I’m sure G would agree...

[christianm77]

Just another out of tune soprano sax player.

You say that as if it’s a bad thing.

[christianm77]

Tunings for nerds.

[Rhythmisking]

Just another out of tune soprano sax player.

Hey I resemble that remark!

[neatomic]

anyone else notice that on Light as a Feather, Stanley Clark is almost a 1/4 beat ahead of Airto the entire time during solos. At one point Joe Farrell stops playing. I gotta believe he stopped and looked around and thought, WTF?!?

interesting!..tho i think the offenders are the brazilians...purim is way pitchy (she got better with time)..and airto was never an in the pocket drummer...he never lasted too long as any bands drummer...they always moved him to hand percussion..where he is maestro

recording is also poor...chick produced it..in uk studio...bass sounds like a piezo pickup..that horrid all mids no bottom quack..

tho farrell is at his coltrane inspired best on the solo

and chicks wah'ed electric piano tone inspired a whole lot of players

cheers

[neatomic]

Just another out of tune soprano sax player.

haha

backdoor was bassists colin hodgkinsons tour de force...fingerstyle electric bassist..quite unique at the time...

tho admittedly he and ron aspery (the soprano) are not in the tightest of tuning!!

the soprano playing isn't as out with itself (tho he has his moments!!..haha) as it is just out with the bass

they needed snarks!! haha

cheers

[jzucker]

the track i meant to refer to is spain. Listen to how far ahead stanley is playing and how farrell stops at one point to figure out where the beat is.

[neatomic]

reminds me how wonderful joe farrell was..flute and horn!!

there's alot going on "production wise" on this track..acro bass lines doubled...sounds like 2 drum kits at points as well..and chick played drums!!

don't hear the bass as being so off time...think its more a question of the recording..the attack is all off...no low end.. that stanley was hearing whilst playing

i do hear that trouble spot but i thinks its cause chick got a little too complicated for the groove...

anyways, always a treat to compare notes with serious listeners!!...why this place is great

cheers

[cosmic gumbo]

No guitar :-)

I've had that album for 40 years.

[jzucker]

It's not the recording! Farrell actually stops in the middle of his solo to figure out what's going on with the time. You can hear stanley speed up and slow down.

reminds me how wonderful joe farrell was..flute and horn!!

there's alot going on "production wise" on this track..acro bass lines doubled...sounds like 2 drum kits at points as well..and chick played drums!!

don't hear the bass as being so off time...think its more a question of the recording..the attack is all off...no low end.. that stanley was hearing whilst playing

i do hear that trouble spot but i thinks its cause chick got a little too complicated for the groove...

anyways, always a treat to compare notes with serious listeners!!...why this place is great

cheers

[jbernstein91]

I really like early Return to Forever, with Bill Connors -- perhaps less slick than the RTF with Di Meola, but energized and ballsy in a way similar to The New Tony Williams Lifetime with Holdsworth. And I love Chick's use of an overdriven Fender Rhodes:

[m_d]

There's little space for real jazz anymore. I always complain about the near absence of jazz at the Montreux "jazz" festival. The most jazz you get are Scofield and Benson. I like other genres too but come on.
Rather than fusion I like the "crossover" label. It's lose enough to work from Steely Dan to Lage and Eldridge and even someone like Andy Wood, who comes from bluegrass but seems to be able to play anything.

In terms of the jazz scene itself I feel practically any non-classical instrumental live music ends up here.

An example might be Neil Cowley. Cowley is very quick to distance himself from the idea of being a jazz musician, and his music involves little or no improvisation. But he is booked in at jazz festivals because it’s piano bass and drums and has a groove.

I like his music btw, not a criticism.

I get in to arguments when I say that there should be a separate space where people can concentrate on bop, straightahead etc. That there is a place for the mainstream jazz club. People think I’m being a reactionary.

But I’m not - because the alternative sort of eclectic fusion space is very interesting to me as a musician.

But: it’s perfectly possible to go a jazz festival and not hear any jazz which swings on the old sense. Which is a shame because in my experience live audiences dig straightahead when it is really swinging.

Anyway I have no desire to restart any discussion on that. I like music.