Fusion Jazz Guitar Gear?

[jzucker]

That aside, have you ever checked out Scott Henderson's website/message board? The topic of Chick Corea pops up there pretty often, and Henderson often unloads on his electric (elektric) music. He thinks it's shallow, cynical, commercial pap driven by Scientology's worship of money. Certainly there have been points in time when Corea's music was both artistically deep and popular. But Henderson says Corea's electric music (post fairly early RTF) is pretty cynical. Obviously, not something I can assess personally, but he dishes some inside dirt to support his view.

John

I don't want to go into this publicly but there is something else going on in that dynamic other than just the music that I happen to know from "insider" info.

[Bach5G]

Spain and 500 Miles High appeared on Light as a Feather (1971). But Chick subsequently saw that the money was in rock and roll.

The Mouse stuff - meh (wasn’t there a Spanish Heart phase after the rock fusion period? A jazz-schlock fusion perhaps?A different conversation.)

Fabulous musicianship? No argument there. I heard RTF in the late 70s. Outstanding concert. I was a huge fan of Where Have I etc. Loved DiMeola’s playing. But I couldn’t listen to more than a few minutes of it when I recently streamed it.

edited to add: I see CSM is off of 7th Gal. My mistake. Maybe another reason I wasn’t a fan of the album. I’ve played a big band arrangement of the tune (and please Lord, don’t make me play it again!)

[jorgemg1984]

I love Chick, but I think what drives kids to "fusion" today is Snarky Puppy / Cory Henry.

[Eric Rowland]

Tim Miller interview ....
Little Details… Samples? Pick Changes? Midi? - GuitarPlayer.com

[neatomic]

nyc fusion came out of electric miles..all the big fusion players came out of that miles/teo macero/columbia record$ scene...

chick played with mclaughlin played with vitous played with zawinul & jarrett...etc etc..they are all over each others early fusion records...spaces, mountains in the clouds, lifetime etc

but mahavishnu orchestra was the first real electric fusion biggie...& all the musicians loved 'em...beck, bolin, bruford, etc etc

chick turned from brazil to electric with bill connors after the orchestra...

zawinul avoided guitars altogether..and used great bassists

other was coryells eleventh house..but they were always lower tier..coryell!...nyc cult level...vanguard records, not columbia...even arista didn't do much with them...alphonse mouzon was a killer drummer tho

the uk guys always interested me as well..came from more of the rock side..spedding with nucleus, beloved ollie halsall, holdworth, goodsall with brand x, phill lee, phil miller...also robert fripp- highly influential..etc etc

cheers

ps my 2 fave original fusion lps are

the 2nd stanley clarke...with stanley, bill connors, jan hammer and (miles') tony williams!!!! (what a quartet!)

the first gateway trio- abercrombie, holland & dejohnette (the latter 2 from electric miles)

[RonD]

I love Chick, but I think what drives kids to "fusion" today is Snarky Puppy / Cory Henry.

I'm far from being a kid, but Cory Henry... the real deal!

[NSJ]

I couldn't disagree more. I think the no mystery album is absolutely classic and tunes like 500 miles high, spain, captain marvel, captain senora mouse are still performed as "standards" even today. I find myself still listening to that album (despite Clark's rushing on Spain) whereas I can only listen to birds of fire when I'm extremely nostalgic.

I doubt chick derived anything from mahavishnu other than the generic concept of fusing jazz and rock.

Also, the level of musicianship in chick's band was an order of magnitude higher than mahavishnu although Billy Cobham is a monster.

I don’t remember which came first, but I tend to think that a lot of those numbers Chick played with Stan Getz on his album Captain Marvel . In a more traditional jazz style, as Getz was the band leader, but a lot of the tunes were Chick’s.

I don’t think any of the young musicians at that stage have the authority to dictate to someone like Getz how they wanted the tunes to be played. But I seem to remember they were much different in style, feel and arrangement than the RTF versions.

I havent listened to Captain Marvel by Getz in years. This reminds me I need to revisit that, and the album he did in the 1970s with a sadly obscure piano player named Jimmy Rowles.

[neatomic]

i love capt marvel!..got it when it came out as a kid..but it was an attempt at getting getz into the new fusiony thing
...he hit with the gilberto, so could he hit again (10 years later) with chick latin tinged rtf style tunes?

the answer was no!!

having said that, still a strong album..but terrible production....even the cd sounds bad

file next to the first two airto rtf and some of joe farrells early cti stuff

all good

cheers

[Cunamara]

i read an article by chick corea where he admitted that the reason he started his fusion band was to reach *PEOPLE*. I think it's important to connect with people. Playing "jazz" during happy hour as background music is not fulfilling. Playing a great solo and having nobody clap is not reaching people. I did that for years and i'm very hesitant to take gigs like that anymore. I see nothing wrong with playing music that reaches people. Jazz does not mean playing show tunes written in the '40s on an archtop with heavy strings.

I remember reading an interview with Metheny where he discusses jazz being a process rather than a repertoire. I agree, and I think there is a tendency to define jazz as a repertoire (GAS tunes, etc.). While I think the swing feel is fundamental to jazz, it is not solely definitive of jazz (even though I don't dig the quadruple time feel straight 16ths thing myself).

[jzucker]

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you said but Joe Farrell is on woodwinds on light as a feather.

i love capt marvel!..got it when it came out as a kid..but it was an attempt at getting getz into the new fusiony thing
...he hit with the gilberto, so could he hit again (10 years later) with chick latin tinged rtf style tunes?

the answer was no!!

having said that, still a strong album..but terrible production....even the cd sounds bad

file next to the first two airto rtf and some of joe farrells early cti stuff

all good

cheers

[Eric Rowland]

[Cunamara]

Julian Lage's most recent cd is a great testimony of that. Listening to his telecaster makes me feel happy.

Interesting that you mention Julian Lage. You are right that he is in the fusion camp, just not the late 70s fusion camp or Holdsworthyness which is what I automatically think of. But there are other fusions, as you say, and Lage pulls several things together simultaneously and seemingly effortlessly.

Bill Frisell is another fusion approach- from the Motian trio to Guitar In The Space Age to his string quartet to the riveting gig I saw him play with the Bad Plus to Jim Hall to...

I guess I need to qualify my earlier comments about not liking fusion very much!

[neatomic]

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you said but Joe Farrell is on woodwinds on light as a feather.

yeah of course..thats why i brought him up

he did the chick thing great..and beyond!..highly under the radar player...died young



cheers

[neatomic]

prime!

cheers

[jzucker]

anyone else notice that on Light as a Feather, Stanley Clark is almost a 1/4 beat ahead of Airto the entire time during solos. At one point Joe Farrell stops playing. I gotta believe he stopped and looked around and thought, WTF?!?

[newsense]

I'm beginning to lose track of the number of different definitions of "Fusion" in this thread. It no longer works for me as a description of a genre, but seems to being applied to jazz in which either (i) the guitarist uses overdrive, or (ii) doesn't involve the Great American Songbook, or (iii) incorporates other influences besides straight ahead jazz, such as rock, latin or even americana. That covers an immense range of stuff for a single word descriptor - can they all be described as Fusion ?

At first, I thought that the definition of Fusion had just evolved from its 70's origins - just like the definition of R'n'B today seems to be poles apart from what I understood it to mean in the 60's. I was absolutely OK with Jack's first example of Fusion (i.e. Tim Miller), but I would find it hard to apply the term to Julian Lage and Bill Frisell !

I guess it comes down to whether we use the word generically (lower case f) to describe any result of blending genres, or as a specific genre in its own right (upper case F), which has a more limited number of musical and style characteristics.

[jzucker]

It's all just jazz, really.

I'm beginning to lose track of the number of different definitions of "Fusion" in this thread. It no longer works for me as a description of a genre, but seems to being applied to jazz in which either (i) the guitarist uses overdrive, or (ii) doesn't involve the Great American Songbook, or (iii) incorporates other influences besides straight ahead jazz, such as rock, latin or even americana. That covers an immense range of stuff for a single word descriptor - can they all be described as Fusion ?

At first, I thought that the definition of Fusion had just evolved from its 70's origins - just like the definition of R'n'B today seems to be poles apart from what I understood it to mean in the 60's. I was absolutely OK with Jack's first example of Fusion (i.e. Tim Miller), but I would find it hard to apply the term to Julian Lage and Bill Frisell !

I guess it comes down to whether we use the word generically (lower case f) to describe any result of blending genres, or as a specific genre in its own right (upper case F), which has a more limited number of musical and style characteristics.

[christianm77]

I’m not sure if I play fusion exactly, I’d say electric jazz.

By which I mean less intricate arrangements and charts, stops etc, more loose, groove based and improvisational outside of solos.

Thinking Chris Potter underground,
Donny Macaslin, maybe Wayne Krantz, Mike stern on a Monday night....

I play a Tele into a Princeton with a bit of delay and a tubescreamer for light overdrive where required. Volume pedal is invaluable, and I use it with looper and ehx freeze for ambient layered textures.

[christianm77]

Would be up for playing some fusion charts with a band though. Never actually went through the phase of doing that! #misspentyouthplayingbebop

[jzucker]

didn't know you did any of that. I thought you were strictly gypsy-jazz...

I’m not sure if I play fusion exactly, I’d say electric jazz.

By which I mean less intricate arrangements and charts, stops etc, more loose, groove based and improvisational outside of solos.

Thinking Chris Potter underground,
Donny Macaslin, maybe Wayne Krantz, Mike stern on a Monday night....

I play a Tele into a Princeton with a bit of delay and a tubescreamer for light overdrive where required. Volume pedal is invaluable, and I use it with looper and ehx freeze for ambient layered textures.

[jorgemg1984]

I'm far from being a kid, but Cory Henry... the real deal!

True, he's killer, although I would maybe put him more in the R&B / soul genre than in jazz. But he's a star for many kids in jazz, today!

[christianm77]

Haha Gypsy Jazz/swing was something that started up as a bit of a sideline for me but I ended up getting so many gigs in that area I didn’t do much of anything else for a few years. I never wanted to be a purist GJ player.

There are lots of colleagues who have never heard me play electric. I’m trying to get back into more of that playing now, because I really missed it.

That said I find adapting back to the electric guitar challenging after playing so many acoustic gigs. Along with focussing more on projects rather than just pick up gigs....

Also I think the swing/prohibition thing has gone out of fashion a bit, so it’s a good time for me to refocus on what I do.

[jorgemg1984]

I'm beginning to lose track of the number of different definitions of "Fusion" in this thread. It no longer works for me as a description of a genre, but seems to being applied to jazz in which either (i) the guitarist uses overdrive, or (ii) doesn't involve the Great American Songbook, or (iii) incorporates other influences besides straight ahead jazz, such as rock, latin or even americana. That covers an immense range of stuff for a single word descriptor - can they all be described as Fusion ?

At first, I thought that the definition of Fusion had just evolved from its 70's origins - just like the definition of R'n'B today seems to be poles apart from what I understood it to mean in the 60's. I was absolutely OK with Jack's first example of Fusion (i.e. Tim Miller), but I would find it hard to apply the term to Julian Lage and Bill Frisell !

I guess it comes down to whether we use the word generically (lower case f) to describe any result of blending genres, or as a specific genre in its own right (upper case F), which has a more limited number of musical and style characteristics.

I agree 100%. Very hard for me to put Frisell, Lage or Moreno in "fusion". I think "modern" guitar players, which probably started with Metheny, are very different from "fusion", which is very specific and always very Holdsworth inspired, to my ears.

Funny thing, the same thing happens with "jazz" itself, by being so broad it ends up being mixed with lots of stuff that are very far from jazz. There's some "jazz festivals" where you can see Eric Clapton or Katie Melua on the schedule!

[christianm77]

Also I reckon Django would have been well into jazz rock had he lived. He was a pretty open minded guy, and his electric playing is pretty shred lol.

Btw I’ve spent about two months teaching guitar to generation Snarky Puppy at university - they have an interesting outlook:

They know Wes, Hank Mobley, Grant Green etc, and they know Snarky, Christian Scott, Lettieri, knower, Thundercat etc

But they have never heard of Mike Stern, Wayne Krantz etc. I actually had to teach them about these guys.

Even Kurt Rosenwinkel is like the establishment jazz stuff to them.

[jorgemg1984]

Yeah, Kurt is no longer hip, go figure!!