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I have StewMac's tang nipper. On binded fretboards use it to remove around 3/16" of the tang from both ends of each fret, and after glueing I trim fret ends flush with the fingerboard as Bob Benedetto instructs on page 137 of his book. So what is shortened is the fret tang.
As can be seen in this actual repair of Gibson JS:
Gibson Archtop Refret Finger Lakes Guitar Repair
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01-02-2017 08:41 AM
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Well, I finally Came to my senses and brought my Johnny Smith into the shop for a refret. I just couldn't get use to the low frets. I suspect this will end up being a great decision.
Based on Vinnys recommendation, I am going with the Jescar Evo Gold 47/104 frets. He says the new Gibson L5 he bought came with those frets as standard and he loves them.
So, in 3-4 weeks, I am hoping to be doing cartwheels with my dream guitar.
One other thing.. one more thanks to Steve Longobardi for finding me this great guitar. When I took the guitar out of the case and handed it to the Luthier, Ian, he said he thought I "was handing him a modern guitar", " something from 2010 or so.".. That was his exact words. 41 year old Guitars usually don't look this good. Now, it will play just as nice..
Joe D
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nice! always good when the luthier likes or is impressed by the guitar he's working on!!
the waiting game begins...
cheers
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I hope he does a wonderful job so you can carry on making those lush beautiful sounds. I don't like the idea of gluing in frets like in the link above. I've also wondered why I've never seen a refret that keeps the binding nibs, or seen anyone glue them back on after. Using dcm glue it should be possible to put the nibs back even after fretboard planing, that is what I would do.
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Good luck, Joe! I'm sure your dream guitar is in good hands. The wait will be worth it!
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JD, I hope it plays like buttah! (whatever the hell that means)
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thanks buddy.
Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
Ian looked at the frets and didn't see much value in keeping the nibs. He is putting frets on that are 47's and the frets that he is taking off the guitar are less than 1/2 that. It makes no sense. He said I will get more fret surface with the new frets without the nibs.. I am not worried about the nibs at all.
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JD, I use Dunlop 6150 stainless for my refrets. They are 103/46, pretty close to what you are getting. A true Jumbo. The right size for ease of playing. I bet you will be well pleased.
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You will never look back being nibless. You will kick yourself for not doing it sooner. It will play and sound like a dream.
You made the right call bro.
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Joe,
This guitar is a keeper for sure - so why not get it perfect for yourself. I know the playability and sound will be just incredible after the refret. Its also the nicest 41 year old GJS on the planet.
Can't wait for your feedback in a few weeks .
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yeah right.. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
i was thinking about you when I was there. He has 3 DA's and a DAQ on display. As you know I am not one to pick up a guitar and play it if I am not serious about buying it, but I did pluck the strings of the granddaddy New Yorker and I heard the complexity that DA's are known for. I was tempted. But I would have left my check book, my GJS, my marriage certificate and a couple of kidneys on the counter and left with it! He has a Stromberg there too. Believe it or not, after seeing all these vintage grails, I drooled over the Ribbecke he has.
here is a pic of the pickguard bracket on the NY'r and the workmanship on the Ribbecke..
Jabbs you are a lucky man..
By the way, there was an Archtop.com sticker inside the DA.. I thought that was sacrilegious if you ask me.
JD
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I can't wait to hear and see the results of this refret. As I said earlier, I've decided to cave and get my beat up p old '68 GJS refretted with the EVO Gold wire, but I'm still debating the size to use.
I'm about to take it in very soon too. I'm pretty anxious despite it being a player's grade guitar and totally worn out frets. It will be a big change though, since the frets are original. Oh well, the pots and one pickguard screw are no longer original and I added an endpin jack on my own. I know it will take my GJS over the top into superb playability.
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i know you've been eyeing those ribbeckes, joe D....that one in pic is a beauty!
mark kleinhut is 2 for 2!
haha
cheers
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Joe. Enjoy. I have that exact fret wire and size in a custom guitar and I think you will be pleased. As far as the All Parts pick guard. I went the same route as you with similar results. If I had purchased the l5 pickguard from All Parts from the get go I would have been way ahead dollar and frustration wise.
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rhythm man, any Smith is worth fixing up. They are elite level guitars. I saw a 68 today that was pretty rough. $7500. The 60's smith's are highly desirable and magnificent guitars. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
thats the 25th anniversary. $15,000. Workmanship beyond anything I've seen. Originally Posted by neatomic
You are right, neatomic, I likes me some Ribbecke's..
Rob, I am really glad to hear that. Originally Posted by rob taft
And yes the all parts pickguard is pretty much perfect for the job. I am very happy with it.
JD
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If you love the guitar, I think the re-fret is a great idea. I have refretted two guitars and had great experiences in both circumstances.
If you find a good luthier, the attention to detail they will put into the effort can't be beat. It took a while, but the person who did mine leveled the fretboard in a couple of spots and gave it a setup that rivaled some of the pleked guitars I have played.
My advice is don't look back, and expect that great guitar to be even greater when the work has been accomplished.
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hi all,
a nubie here, but some wire/ refret comments from my recent experience.
evo frets:
3 yrs ago, i did a 3,000 mile journey (over 2 long weekends) looking for that top end sound in a mando. i had 2 really nice mando's but i had played a gilcrest that had something extra. so i wanted that extra dimension. i was considering a heiden mando and i called michael heiden. nice discussion, very fine luthier and a real gentleman too.
one my my fellow archtop friends, he actually had been a tech way back for ted nugent, had discussed evo frets w/ me when i was deciding what to put on my '39 D'a. his opinion was that evo was gonna give a bit brighter of a sound than std nickle wire. he had heard it on guitars and he didn't like the overall flavor.
so when i talked to michael heiden about evo's yielding a brighter sound, he said that is true. however, he said as a builder, you can account for that wire effect in the way you build it so you can have the evo benefits and still get the expected "traditional" tone.
in max's case, he doesn't get to build his JS to acct for the brighter evo flavor so i would consider not doing the evo frets based on the input i got from 2 folks who are both knowledgeable and musicians.
to refret or not:
when i got my '39 D'a, it was hard, i mean hard, to play chords on it. i have a number of old archies, some have/had well worn frets, but i never had seen frets as low as on the D'a! they were literally barely more than a matchbook cover or 2 in thickness. although the wire was not original, i have no idea how the last dressing was accomplished. so i didn't have the "keep it stock" quandry like max.
so based on the input from heiden and my archie pal, i went with std jescar wire, maybe it was 46x95, something along that size, instead of the evo. was a great choice!
it has the same flavor as before, but the voice was like 3-4x more after the refret! i was stunned at the diff w/ frets i could actually use. sitting in the shop, i took it out of the case and gave it just 2 chord strums. i involuntarily just exclaimed "WOW!" at the huge diff in tone and voice and i just looked over at Dave and smiled. i couldn't believe how much more voice it had. bigger, a bit louder, and easy to play. so maybe i've been suffering with too many guitars with low frets, unaware of what i could gain w/ a refret. i think my trusty '47 L-7C ("aftermarket" cutaway) will also be getting a refret as i've noticed over the years that the chording could be easier and they are pretty low (but way more than the D'a).
so there it is from my perspective. didn't go w/ evo, and i did get the frets replaced.
something to consider if the refret hasn't begun yet.Last edited by brewster; 02-20-2017 at 11:32 PM.
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@ Brewster
I have played guitars that have been refretted with EVO and guitars that have been refretted with stainless (both before and after). IMO, the difference in tone is negligible. Brighter? Nope, I would say perhaps a bit more "detailed" is a better description.
There are a lot of opinions. I let my ears decide over all of the internet opinions. I like the color of stainless better than the color of EVO, but if the gold frets did not bother me, EVO would be fine.
Max405 will be fine with his choice.
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Big Joe will love the evo's. He loves a "detailed" clarity plus he will love the gold. He is a Blinger type of guy. I too think the gold color works with gold hardware on a axe. I love polished SS too. Both great choices in my book. Not to mention he will never need a fret job again.
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I'm very much looking forward to your comments when you receive the JS back. I believe it was the right decision for you. Originally Posted by Max405
For myself i noticed that on the one gig that i took my 76 to so far, it played just wonderfully and no discomfort about the super low frets came up at all. I guess it just needed a little spark of adrenalin to make it disappear.
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I don't like nibs at all. Especially not with ebony fretboards which tend to "move around" with humidity changes. Seasonal shrinking and swelling of the wood can often make the fret ends protrude. With nibs, cracked binding/broken nibs is the result and repair involves binding surgery. Without nibs, the protruding fret ends can just be filed down and rerounded and the problem is gone once and for all - an easy operation. I have one guitar with nibs and they will surely have to go at the first refret. I have never understood the benefits of nibs for the player. Originally Posted by Max405
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Brewster, Thanks for your insight.
The best sound on a guitar to me is the sound of BRAND NEW TI Jazz Swings. I like flats, but I like a little shimmer. With new TI's, that lasts for like a day, at most. I am actually hoping to gain a little definition permanently with the EVO golds.
The GJS sounds like a lot of things, and Bright is not one of them. Plus if I don't like the sound, I'll adjust for it in the position of picking.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Joe D
Originally Posted by brewster
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Ahhh.. You know me well. When I saw the way the EVO gold frets look on your Wine L5, I was hooked. That guitar is REALLY gonna be my baby now. Thanks bro. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
JN, All I do now is sit and play chord melody arrangements. I have a difficult time "stretching out" on low frets. Originally Posted by JazzNote
I here you on the adrenaline part. I've been there.
JD
Ol, Originally Posted by oldane
I have always loved nibs, I think they are elegant.
My humidification arrangement will stop any protruding frets, I absolutely despise that. I am going to really enjoy this guitar now. I am a lucky guy.
JDLast edited by Max405; 02-21-2017 at 09:54 AM.
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>> I have never understood the benefits of nibs for the player. <<
>> I have always loved nibs, I think they are elegant. <<
For the best feeling (semi-)hemispherical, domed or rounded fret ends rule. All other methods, IMO, are subprime on a top end archtop: if a job is worth doing, it is worth doing well.
Nibs may look and feel elegant for some, but cannot match up to hemispherical ends. Of course, the latter are more time-consuming, and plek machines can't do that.
In general, ebony shrinks more in radial direction than rosewood, which can lead to protruding fret ends. The Wood Database gives numbers of 8.3% (the actual Gaboon or Cameroun ebony), whereas the older stuff was more stable (5.4% for Ceylon ebony). East Indian rosewood shrinks 2.7% (about the same amount like African Blackwood), but is much softer.
In practice, it mostly depends on how well the particular wood was selected, dried, and whether it was rift-sawn (= quarter-cut) or not. In the violin world (fretless, with the exception of mandolins) most master makers would reject an ebony fretboard blank that is flat-sawn or more than just a bit rift-cut, or is showing too much irregular growth. LMII, for example, states: "For many years now we have not been able to get quartersawn boards as the Ebony trees are very small. Less than 1% of the boards are quartersawn and we can not specially select quartersawn boards for you."
So, a top end archtop job starts with selecting the woods.
The fret color, size and material depends on hardly more than the player's preference (and wallet), and whether he/she's a high mileage player or not.
Everyone familiar with both the guitar and the violin world knows that the main difference between these instruments - beside the using of a bow - are the frets. In other words, all the principles were found about 500 years ago. Play your main guitar after the worn frets are removed, and you'll see what I mean: the really tight seat of the frets in and on the fretboard is an essential factor for the guitar tone. Since bar frets have been replaced by T-frets, providing a tight contact by gluing is more necessary than ever. Keep in mind also that a hefty fret leveling can heat the frets so much that the preexisting metal-wood-glue bonding comes loose (CA, hide glue in any case) - demanding for a subsequent regluing procedure.
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Bro.....while it is in the shop have them fit a Gibson tun-o-matic bridge to it also. It is nice to have both a wood and a tun-o-matic bridge. Get the good one. Not the one with the retainer wire. Those cheaper ones rattle. They are only around $60 for a gold Nashville one. Nice for spot on intonation. I like the added clarity and sustain too. Nice to have the choice.
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