Gibson Johnny Smith - Pre Fret Job

**QAman** · 12-28-2016, 09:25 PM

Max405,
You've now had the guitar a few months to contemplate the dilemma of retaining originality - or optimizing playability.

Based on all I've read - I think at this juncture it's time to replace the frets and focus on playability.

While originality is undeniably important to the value - if you intend on keeping the instrument then make it comfortable for YOU. This guitar is one of the cleanest examples in existence from that period and I don't see a fret job diminishing its value.

Besides , flat frets from this period were never that desirable - and in many cases have intonation problems.

Most of the Johnny Smiths currently for sale have had the frets replaced.

**Max405** · 12-28-2016, 09:59 PM

QAMan,
Thanks for the great advice.
There is no reason to keep these frets after 40 years. People were buying these and getting the frets replaced before they took the guitar home.
A piece of me thinks about the original owner, who kept this guitar in virtually brand new condition for all those years. He would have been REALLY pissed at me for what I'm about to do. I'm sorry buddy. The rest of this guitar is too amazing to go to waste because of those silly frets.
JD

**vinnyv1k** · 12-28-2016, 10:21 PM

I had a 1979 JS that I bought new. 2 weeks later it had new frets and played like a dream. I traded it a couple years later for a Super V. The new frets back then increased it's value. Back then a fret job increased a Gibson's value.
Nowadays everyone loves the binding nibs but I think they increase the chances of fretboard binding cracks if their is even a slight bit of fret sprout from humidity changes or cold temps. Yes binding nibs look sweet I must admit but playability and tone must always come 1st or why even bother being a musician. Do you think Joe Pass or Johnny Smith worried about original frets on there axes ? I don't think they ever polished there guitars either. They were tools of their trade.
Like a hammer to a carpenter.

**QAman** · 12-28-2016, 10:32 PM

Max405,
This reminds me of when I bought my 35 ' DA from Larry W years ago. The original frets were flattened from numerous re- leveling and years of playing- but the guitar still sounded terrific . I left Larrys and told him I would give the purchase some thought.

A week later , while on business in Florida , I called Larry and said I would buy the guitar. I also asked him to have Norio change the frets in the meantime . This was all done on trust and I hadn't paid for the guitar yet, but Larry is a good friend .

A week later when Larry picked up the guitar from Norio he called me and said it sounds so amazing he's keeping it- lol !

I picked it up the following week and was completely overwhelmed with how much better it sounded - it was an amazing transformation.

My point here . Your guitar already has an awesome tone , but I believe this fret job with bring out another element of this guitar- yet to be discovered .

It's going to be extraordinary !

**vinnyv1k** · 12-28-2016, 10:37 PM

+1

**Marty Grass** · 12-29-2016, 09:29 AM

You convinced me.

**Max405** · 12-29-2016, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by QAman

Max405,
This reminds me of when I bought my 35 ' DA from Larry W years ago. The original frets were flattened from numerous re- leveling and years of playing- but the guitar still sounded terrific . I left Larrys and told him I would give the purchase some thought.

A week later , while on business in Florida , I called Larry and said I would buy the guitar. I also asked him to have Norio change the frets in the meantime . This was all done on trust and I hadn't paid for the guitar yet, but Larry is a good friend .

A week later when Larry picked up the guitar from Norio he called me and said it sounds so amazing he's keeping it- lol !

I picked it up the following week and was completely overwhelmed with how much better it sounded - it was an amazing transformation.

My point here . Your guitar already has an awesome tone , but I believe this fret job with bring out another element of this guitar- yet to be discovered .

It's going to be extraordinary !

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

You convinced me.

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

+1

Thank You guys. New Frets it is!

**lawson-stone** · 12-29-2016, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Max405

QAMan,
Thanks for the great advice.
There is no reason to keep these frets after 40 years. People were buying these and getting the frets replaced before they took the guitar home.
A piece of me thinks about the original owner, who kept this guitar in virtually brand new condition for all those years. He would have been REALLY pissed at me for what I'm about to do. I'm sorry buddy. The rest of this guitar is too amazing to go to waste because of those silly frets.
JD

I doubt it. I think maybe the reason the guitar is pristine is because the guy never played it because of those dang tiny frets... From guitarist heaven maybe he's saying, YES, I ALWAYS WANTED TO DO THAT!

**Max405** · 12-29-2016, 05:08 PM

Great one Lawson! JD

**Cavalier** · 12-29-2016, 05:54 PM

Frets are a wear item, you don't see too many people keeping their original tires on the car and still drive it either. I'm fine with most smaller frets but the ones on my Bjarton are just too low for me which is a first. I'll put new ones on the to do list.

The one caution I'd give Joe after watching the guitar quest is to make sure you aren't creating a situation that will enable another grail search. The JS is refretted and sounds somehow '"different!" After another month of soul searching the die is cast and the hunt is on...... for some the journey is more important than the destination.

Just kidding, Happy New Fret year!

**Max405** · 12-29-2016, 06:11 PM

Thanks Cavalier. If it sounds different, I give up..
I'll take up the kazoo..

**Cavalier** · 12-29-2016, 10:29 PM

Forget about the kazoo, they can't be refretted.

**Max405** · 12-31-2016, 09:08 AM

I visited Ronaldo yesterday. I love that old man. 82 years old and he has more pepper in his ass than most people half his age.
I brought in my GJS. He said that is his favorite archtop guitar ever made. He calls it the John Smith.
So because of my stupid loyalty, I considered wrapping the rest of the guitar in armor and giving him the job to do the frets. Before I could even ask, he said he wouldn't touch the guitar. He said leave it like it is and get use to playing the guitar. He said the frets are exactly as the were when the guitar was brand new. Changing them out would require a lot of work to do it right. He said, I know you Joe. No matter what I do, you won't be happy. He said he wished I bought one in bad shape. This way he would be ok with bringing it back to life. This one is too original and too mint for him to touch.
So that didn't work..

**ThatRhythmMan** · 12-31-2016, 09:24 AM

What a dilemma! I can totally understand the desire to make the guitar more playable. My 1968 GJS is one that's seen a lot if use. It still has the original frets which are very worn and it's much more difficult to play than it could be. I still haven't been able to let go and get it refretted.

**JazzNote** · 12-31-2016, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Max405

I visited Ronaldo yesterday. I love that old man. 82 years old and he has more pepper in his ass than most people half his age.
I brought in my GJS. He said that is his favorite archtop guitar ever made. He calls it the John Smith.
So because of my stupid loyalty, I considered wrapping the rest of the guitar in armor and giving him the job to do the frets. Before I could even ask, he said he wouldn't touch the guitar. He said leave it like it is and get use to playing the guitar. He said the frets are exactly as the were when the guitar was brand new. Changing them out would require a lot of work to do it right. He said, I know you Joe. No matter what I do, you won't be happy. He said he wished I bought one in bad shape. This way he would be ok with bringing it back to life. This one is too original and too mint for him to touch.
So that didn't work..

After a pause of two weeks i started playing my 76 GJS again a couple of days ago. I got a little disturbed about the intonation for the first half hour or so, but then my ears got used to it. This guitar is so articulate in its present condition, i doubt that i ever will be able to decide on changing the frets unless there's no other choice because they would be played down totally. In order to not let this happen too soon i keep playing different guitars.

If you ever decide to change the frets you need to make sure that an absolute top notch job is done - regardless of the price it would cost you!

**gcb** · 12-31-2016, 09:59 AM

Max405 (JD) I would follow Mr. Ronaldo's advice.

**medblues** · 12-31-2016, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Max405

...He said, I know you Joe. No matter what I do, you won't be happy...

I took it a little out of context :-)) it sounds wrong you are typically a happy guy. If the frets are not good according to QAman and other owners of the guitar and he says they are good. Maybe he is gracefully rejecting the job being afraid of not being able to do a perfect, clean job.

You proved your "loyalty" by giving him the dibs first, now I would go to the next luthier who will do it. Someone with a track record of slow, meticulous and clean work.

Given the stories out there, I would not ship the guitar and risk losing the safety edge of picking the best luthier to an unscrupulous cargo truck driver.

**Marty Grass** · 12-31-2016, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Max405

I visited Ronaldo yesterday. I love that old man. 82 years old and he has more pepper in his ass than most people half his age.
I brought in my GJS. He said that is his favorite archtop guitar ever made. He calls it the John Smith.
So because of my stupid loyalty, I considered wrapping the rest of the guitar in armor and giving him the job to do the frets. Before I could even ask, he said he wouldn't touch the guitar. He said leave it like it is and get use to playing the guitar. He said the frets are exactly as the were when the guitar was brand new. Changing them out would require a lot of work to do it right. He said, I know you Joe. No matter what I do, you won't be happy. He said he wished I bought one in bad shape. This way he would be ok with bringing it back to life. This one is too original and too mint for him to touch.
So that didn't work..

This is exactly the kind of thing I've heard over the years from all the Gibson and Heritage old timers. Aaron Cowles was a great example. I asked him to change a pickup on an archtop. He was respectful but obviously thought something was wrong with my thinking. He asked if the current pickup was broken, which it wasn't. Then he asked what was wrong with it. I explained that the tone was darker than what I liked. He then asked if I tried to adjust the treble on the amp.

You get the idea.

**iim7V7IM7** · 12-31-2016, 10:29 AM

Joe in my opinion you need to decide why you are owning a guitar. Is it a vintage guitar being preserved as a vintage dealer would (e.g. Original hardware and condition) to maximize its value or as a player looking for an optimal instrument in terms of playability and tone to make music with? These two things can be in sync, but sometimes they are not (as it sounds in this case). "Getting use" to playing it as suggested is one option, but it is rarely successful. Guitars that are difficult to play end up staying in their case or on your rack.

So if the frets are like "new" (per Ronoldo's assessment) yet you find a 25" scale length guitar "very hard for my little hands to hold stretch chords for very long" you need to decide why you own the guitar beyond its historic affiliation (I love Johnny's playing as well) and its tone. If the guitar is properly set up (and I assume that it is), you could look into lighter gauge strings, but I suspect tonally you will be less satisfied than you currently are. Taller frets will be easier to play but it will depend on how hard you grip to avoid having the intonation go sharp. A good luthier will adjust the intonation to match the strength of your fretting grip.

Strings, frets, nuts, bridge height, intonation are all meant to be degrees of freedom to make a guitar work for YOU.

Food for thought...

**QAman** · 12-31-2016, 11:50 AM

Max405,
Your guitar is in mint condition. If I was changing the frets it would go to someone who will respect and preserve the condition.

On my first Trenier I wore down the frets in two years of daily play. The guitar is a D'Aquisto style classic masterpiece , finished in a Stradivarius color- with no scratches anywhere.

I had Bryant give the guitar to Norio Imai - and in one week the frets were replaced perfectly
- and not a single scratch.

I know he is expensive - but this is a big decision and must be done correctly. Give him a call.

**Dennis D** · 12-31-2016, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Max405

I visited Ronaldo yesterday. I love that old man. 82 years old and he has more pepper in his ass than most people half his age.
I brought in my GJS. He said that is his favorite archtop guitar ever made. He calls it the John Smith.
So because of my stupid loyalty, I considered wrapping the rest of the guitar in armor and giving him the job to do the frets. Before I could even ask, he said he wouldn't touch the guitar. He said leave it like it is and get use to playing the guitar. He said the frets are exactly as the were when the guitar was brand new. Changing them out would require a lot of work to do it right. He said, I know you Joe. No matter what I do, you won't be happy. He said he wished I bought one in bad shape. This way he would be ok with bringing it back to life. This one is too original and too mint for him to touch.
So that didn't work..

Ok, my two cents worth:

Joe, if you say he's a good guy, he's a good guy....
Then, he may very well ( most likely ) know both yourself, and your expectations ( and possible 'flaws'

) , and his own abilities and flaws.......He sounds like he's drop dead afraid of putting the first ding in it, ( and losing a pal ) which could happen 'cause maybe he knows that at 82, his eyesight isn't what it once was.....
..I think he's to be commended that he's honest enough about it........and wants to keep you for a pal, for which I can't blame him either.....
I also think you've correctly done your homework and have arrived at a conclusion based upon your playing.....
So if you've got access to that other luthier, ( lucky you ) run it past him too.......
And FWIW, we all know that some day, no matter how hard you try, that guitar is going get its' first ding in it.....and as much as that'll hurt, in the end, so what......it'll still be your instrument, and you'll have more than earned the right to put that ding and others on it.......

Hope that helps Joe.

**Max405** · 12-31-2016, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by QAman

Max405,
Your guitar is in mint condition. If I was changing the frets it would go to someone who will respect and preserve the condition.
On my first Trenier I wore down the frets in two years of daily play. The guitar is a D'Aquisto style classic masterpiece , finished in a Stradivarius color- with no scratches anywhere.
I had Bryant give the guitar to Norio Imai - and in one week the frets were replaced perfectly
- and not a single scratch.
I know he is expensive - but this is a big decision and must be done correctly. Give him a call.

hey QA,
i tried calling Norio yesterday, no answer. I will try him today.
His shop is near where I used to work. I have a lot of memories down there.
Thank you SL..

Originally Posted by Dennis D

Ok, my two cents worth:

Joe, if you say he's a good guy, he's a good guy....
Then, he may very well ( most likely ) know both yourself, and your expectations ( and possible 'flaws'

) , and his own abilities and flaws.......He sounds like he's drop dead afraid of putting the first ding in it, ( and losing a pal ) which could happen 'cause maybe he knows that at 82, his eyesight isn't what it once was.....
..I think he's to be commended that he's honest enough about it........and wants to keep you for a pal, for which I can't blame him either.....
I also think you've correctly done your homework and have arrived at a conclusion based upon your playing.....
So if you've got access to that other luthier, ( lucky you ) run it past him too.......
And FWIW, we all know that some day, no matter how hard you try, that guitar is going get its' first ding in it.....and as much as that'll hurt, in the end, so what......it'll still be your instrument, and you'll have more than earned the right to put that ding and others on it.......

Hope that helps Joe.

Dennis, Thank you buddy. I've known Ronaldo for years. He is a beautiful person. But he is not passing the job because he knows he has lost ability. He has no idea he lost about 60 mph off his fastball. He won't touch it because he doesn't think it should be touched.
As far as dings, there are 3 on the guitar. So the cherry was broken before I got there. And I will get them fixed..

I am seriously considering dropping the refret and using the money toward an L4CES. I will always keep and love the GJS. But, I can blame my 175 for not playing it, just as much as I blame the frets. I've grown reattached to the proportions of the 175. I may get myself a nice L4.

you guys are the best. I'm sorry for all the drama.

JD

**Cavalier** · 12-31-2016, 02:12 PM

This is why I look for "players" or wrecks because there are no doubts about doing anything to them. Maybe it is something to consider, finding a rougher JS to set up the way you want it and sending the mint one along to someone who wants one bone stock. Thinking about your smaller hands I wondered if you had ever tried a Byrdland? I really like them, it would certainly help with the stretch.

**citizenk74** · 12-31-2016, 03:05 PM

It's not drama, Joe, it's friends helping friends find solutions to problems, and sharing the joys and occasional frustrations of being good caretakers of these hunks of wood and wire we all love to play and play with. it's all good, man.