How fast is your guitar amp?

[destinytot]

Whatever you want to call it, it's damned good.

Humour alert:

Right. Tea time over. Back to topic.

[grahambop]

I don't like amplifiers much, they all limit my playing to the speed of electricity.

[Thumpalumpacus]

But I won't call it 'bebop' - or acquiesce to consensus, coercion, conformity, cultural conditioning and commodification. Not for me the branding that makes a lie of Truth and turns Beauty into... the Grotesque.

*shrug*

"Changes aren't permanent, change is."

Nice alliteration, by the way, but I can't believe you just went Dude on me!

[destinytot]

*shrug*

"Changes aren't permanent, change is."

Nice alliteration, by the way, but I can't believe you just went Dude on me!

Better to go Dude than go... Other Lebowski :

(Better still... to go to the beach!)

[Longways to Go]

I've recently switched to a Phil Jones Session 77 BASS amp for guitar.

100 very clean watts, 2-7 inch speakers and one 2 inch speaker.

Unbelievable how clean it is, how fast it responds yet how much depth in the sound. The only downside is that there are no effects or an effects loops.

The upside? Phil Jones quality at $400 US dollars. And it weights a paltry 28 pounds.

Attachment 34189

That looks very very cool !

[Woody Sound]

I love this thread! Coming soon!
Attachment 34185

Just having fun...

Truly LOL.

[icr]

I don't know how many of you double on Bass, but there can be real issues getting in the pocket due to how one times the string attack. The peak of the waveform is not on the attack, there is a slight delay. I suspect jazz guitars can also exhibit a little of this if the treble is rolled off. This waveform is from Bass and it shows the phenomenon. Usually, with electric guitar the peak amplitude is very very close to the attack (not shown).

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I play way too slowly to be concerned.

Yup, my amp has always been faster than me.

[Greentone]

I started building audio and musical instrument amplifiers and speakers about 40 years ago. I have built guitar, bass, and sound reinforcement amps, as well as audio system amps. I got involved in things like slew rate and damping factors (as well as power supply design) a pretty long time ago.

Because of the rather limited frequency response of the electric guitar, as well as the generally limited dynamic range preferences of many players--many players actually like to use compressors on a guitar signal, which squashes the dynamic range--the thought of fast/slow hasn't been as critical a design factor in musical instrument amplifier design as it has been in audio systems. When you are designing a system that will reproduce cymbals, snare drums, pianos...or, even, in some symphonic music, canon fire, you need amps and speakers that can respond very quickly to transient attack and recover quickly, too. High slew rates, plenty of power supply capacitance, and good speaker cone control are critical ingredients.

Early on in audio two schools of thought developed: (1) the uncolored sound school that emphasized a broad, flat response above other considerations. Henry Kloss' efforts at AR, Advent, KLH, and Cambridge Audio produced speakers that were flat and uncolored. In England, the BBC and EMI helped engineer equipment that did the same thing "over there." The result was good frequency response but a lack of pace and involvement in the sound. Paul Klipsch developed speakers at about the same time as Kloss, but do a very different standard. His horn-loaded designs emphasized quick response to transients. Coupled to amplifiers that are fast the Klipschorns deliver very engaging, involving music.

Listening to horn-loaded or ribbon speakers you will notice pretty sensational transient response (with the right amplifiers). You will hear drummers breathe during solos, which is typically missed in the sound smear with most old-style bookshelf speakers. The pace of upright bass will be markedly different. Piano starts to sound like piano...in terms of attack.

For the most part, I shouldn't think that electric guitar signals really fall into the whole fast/slow bag. If you play with a lot of dynamics--i.e., if you are more of an acoustic guitarist, eschew a pedalboard, never use compression--I could perhaps see that a more "etched" presentation of the guitar signal would matter to you. My advice would be to think about using a Crown power amp and a well designed JBL PA bin or two, like Jerry Garcia used to do. It's going to sound quite "hi-fi" but you will get tremendous dynamics and the pace of the signal--with the horn tweeter and the horn-loaded 15" low driver--is going to be noteworthy. Otherwise, the typical combo musical instrument amp is going to be like taking a Smart Car to a drag race--compared to "fast" amps and well designed speakers in the high-end audio field.

[lawson-stone]

Sure it's damned good. On several levels.

Perhaps I'll call it a damned good party trick (not unlike the one pulled by Mr Pizzarelli the younger - who knows a good thing when he sees one - on Indiana).

But I won't call it 'bebop' - or acquiesce to consensus, coercion, conformity, cultural conditioning and commodification. Not for me the branding that makes a lie of Truth and turns Beauty into... the Grotesque.

...

I have a hard time with this. First of all, that is an incredibly harsh assessment of two players who are known for their virtuosity. Second, it implies those of us who do think it's bebop are acquiescing to all those c-words you are using there. Third, you basically have made yourself, and yourself alone, the arbiter of what is really "bebop" and isolated yourself from other listeners, lovers, players, and students of the music. Kind of a Donald Trump move, you know ;-)

I so wish I could do that "party trick." But it's not a party trick. Most "party tricks" I know are literally frozen performances. They are the same every time they are done. But I have listened to 3 or 4 performances of "Donna Lee" by Joe Pass and NHOP and they are all different. Also, even in that clip, it's not all screaming 8th notes. There is space in there too.

You don't have to like anything or agree with genre labels, but the more sharply you differentiate your views on that, the more isolated you become and the more difficult it becomes to have a conversation.

Which would be a loss for us, because you are one smart, thoughtful guy.

[mr. beaumont]

Wow, JP is a sacred cow around here.

[Greentone]

A lot of us really enjoyed Joe Pass as a jazz musician. The man could swing like hell and had great improvisational talent.

[lawson-stone]

Comments have crossed again.

I daresay articulation is to sound what enunciation is to diction. For me, either of those single issues can actually be defining characteristics of both sound and style - which, if disagreeable to my ears as a listener, means 'game over'.

Sympathetic listening leads me to characterise what I hear as some kind of 'swing' - fast (yawn), but I would categorise it as some sort of 'swing' (if pushed to categorise).

And while there's a constant stream of notes, there's too little (if any) dynamic variety for this to constitute 'bebop'. (I tried to make that point in my previous post.)

Now, unlike the opinion I've expressed about the articulation, I rather think that the issue of rhythmic dynamics - a crucial element of 'bebop'-style phrasing - warrants serious scrutiny. Or not.

Joe Pass is safe on his pedestal - but I wouldn't call that (playing in those clips) 'bebop'. Sorry.

To use the speech analogy, though, there is not a single correct enunciative standard. Not every speaker of English will speak with, say, the lovely crispness of an Oxford scholar. The flat mid-western enunciation of the news reader in the US networks is correct, but unremarkable. There are enunciative styles over the south that are capable of a phenomenal range of expression, including elision of final "r" (ne-vah for never) and the clipped enunciation of the New Englander.

In music, likewise, within the same style we still find different types of enunciation. Miles and Bird, on the same recording, playing what I hope you'll consider to be "real" bebop, display very different articulation. Tal Farlow and Wes Montgomery articulate in vastly different ways, and Barney Kessel is different from them yet again, and none of them articulates the way Jimmy Raney does, and I think he's widely accepted as a legit bebop player.

I would hate to be unable to appreciate these different players as bebop players because I was turned off by their accent.

[lawson-stone]

Wow, JP is a sacred cow around here.

Perhaps to some. Sometimes sacred cows are born of proven worth. But your implication is the same as if I had said "Some people can't meet JP's standard so they nitpick at him...sour grapes."

But that would be unkind and unfair, as was your remark. When a lot of people whom I deeply respect and admire like someone so much, and I don't like them, I give it a second, or third look.

It takes a village, you know?

[mr. beaumont]

A lot of us really enjoyed Joe Pass as a jazz musician. The man could swing like hell and had great improvisational talent.

Who said he didnt?

[Boston Joe]

Early on in audio two schools of thought developed: (1) the uncolored sound school that emphasized a broad, flat response above other considerations. Henry Kloss' efforts at AR, Advent, KLH, and Cambridge Audio produced speakers that were flat and uncolored.

I worked at Cambridge Soundworks for a while. One of the few jobs I've been fired from. (I was just packing speakers in boxes. No big deal.)

[destinytot]

I have a hard time with this. First of all, that is an incredibly harsh assessment of two players who are known for their virtuosity. Second, it implies those of us who do think it's bebop are acquiescing to all those c-words you are using there. Third, you basically have made yourself, and yourself alone, the arbiter of what is really "bebop" and isolated yourself from other listeners, lovers, players, and students of the music. Kind of a Donald Trump move, you know ;-)

I so wish I could do that "party trick." But it's not a party trick. Most "party tricks" I know are literally frozen performances. They are the same every time they are done. But I have listened to 3 or 4 performances of "Donna Lee" by Joe Pass and NHOP and they are all different. Also, even in that clip, it's not all screaming 8th notes. There is space in there too.

You don't have to like anything or agree with genre labels, but the more sharply you differentiate your views on that, the more isolated you become and the more difficult it becomes to have a conversation.

Which would be a loss for us, because you are one smart, thoughtful guy.

You seem upset. If so, I really am sorry.

I actually understand and applaud your defence of Joe Pass. And I'll go further and say that I misjudged the likely reaction - except as far as tone and manners. I'm sorry for that, too. If I'd have known I was touching a raw nerve, I'd have kept my yap shut.

With respect, I'm not sorry for expressing my view - with due decorum.

However, you do seem to have conflated two responses of mine to separate comments/posts (yours, and Thumpalumpacus's) and added a touch of Trump - about whom I pride myself on knowing next to nothing.

Firstly, my response yesterday "Sorry, I wouldn't call that 'bebop', made in reference to the playing on the specific clips in the comment quoted. Secondly, there's my 'party trick' comment from today.

I suppose - as both responses address ways of 'naming' the playing presented in a specific context (I'll decline the option to deal with other examples) - that conflation is understandable.

But your reading - of implication - into my words gives me cause for concern. If I'm responsible for causing misunderstanding, for that - too - I am sorry.

And I sincerely apologise if such misunderstanding has caused offence or distress to anyone.

For the sake of clarity, let it be understood that when I say "I won't acquiesce" it is - indeed, literally - about "I" alone that I'm speaking.

Having expressed my view, offered an explanation and given my reasons - such as they are - in the spirit of accountability, and without wishing to be churlish, I'm going re-state that I really do take the view that said playing was/is a party trick ('speed' for its own sake being a constant - a gimmick).

Moreover, regarding this:

Third, you basically have made yourself, and yourself alone, the arbiter of what is really "bebop" and isolated yourself from other listeners, lovers, players, and students of the music

I notice that you've lumped together quite a coalition -'and positioned them in opposition. With respect, please consider the possibility that I'm not making myself 'arbiter' at all (except in an 'Invictus' sort of way). With a nod to Jürgen Habermas, please consider that your own intimacy with 'bebop' is less Prince than... Prince Charles. (Sorry - that's for 'Donald Trump!)

Let it also be clear that I'm a virgin in that department; 'bebop' is an ideal. I stand by my "Sorry, I wouldn't call that 'bebop'. I'm all for a Joe Pass love-fest, but at least keep it real.

Finally don't overlook another view expressed in a comment in which responded to your polite request for an explanation - and which comment (intended to register my appreciation of Joe Pass in positive terms) I shall copy and repost.

[destinytot]

A lot of us really enjoyed Joe Pass as a jazz musician. The man could swing like hell and had great improvisational talent.

Yes. And my comments have offended them. I'm an idiot. Sorry.

[Greentone]

It's all cool, Destinytot. It's going to take a big village to keep jazz going. No harm no foul. Play on.

[Hep To The Jive]

I've recently switched to a Phil Jones Session 77 BASS amp for guitar.

100 very clean watts, 2-7 inch speakers and one 2 inch speaker.

Unbelievable how clean it is, how fast it responds yet how much depth in the sound. The only downside is that there are no effects or an effects loops.

The upside? Phil Jones quality at $400 US dollars. And it weights a paltry 28 pounds.

Attachment 34189

28 pounds, paltry? Perhaps you don't need to haul it across the city on subway or bus? For me anything above 20 pounds needs a trolley to move around, which makes it a pretty slow amp, hahaha.

[destinytot]

To use the speech analogy, though, there is not a single correct enunciative standard. Not every speaker of English will speak with, say, the lovely crispness of an Oxford scholar. The flat mid-western enunciation of the news reader in the US networks is correct, but unremarkable. There are enunciative styles over the south that are capable of a phenomenal range of expression, including elision of final "r" (ne-vah for never) and the clipped enunciation of the New Englander.

In music, likewise, within the same style we still find different types of enunciation. Miles and Bird, on the same recording, playing what I hope you'll consider to be "real" bebop, display very different articulation. Tal Farlow and Wes Montgomery articulate in vastly different ways, and Barney Kessel is different from them yet again, and none of them articulates the way Jimmy Raney does, and I think he's widely accepted as a legit bebop player.

I would hate to be unable to appreciate these different players as bebop players because I was turned off by their accent.

I didn't expect to make so fine a point of it, but I was thinking of enunciation as an aid to phrasal parsing in less-than-ideal speech situations among mature speakers talking at speed. It decreases. As with legato articulation in - er - 'bebop'.

The "what you'll consider real 'bebop'" is quite funny.

This, however, seems to me like (dare I say it? Why be dull!) a perverse form of moral coercion, as it has nothing to do with the articulation on those clips:
[QUOTE]I would hate to be unable to appreciate these different players as bebop players because I was turned off by their accent/QUOTE]

Sorry for causing offence. Enough.

[Greentone]

I think we can all agree: The @#$%^&* Eagles ain't bebop!

[destinytot]

That positive comment:

I think Joe Pass could play with tone, timing and melodic inventiveness of such beauty as to match - if not surpass - 'bebop' players on any instrument.

- and the secret to becoming a great jazz guitarist:

[lawson-stone]

You seem upset. If so, I really am sorry.

I actually understand and applaud your defence of Joe Pass. And I'll go further and say that I misjudged the likely reaction - except as far as tone and manners. I'm sorry for that, too. If I'd have known I was touching a raw nerve, I'd have kept my yap shut.

With respect, I'm not sorry for expressing my view - with due decorum.

However, you do seem to have conflated two responses of mine to separate comments/posts (yours, and Thumpalumpacus's) and added a touch of Trump - about whom I pride myself on knowing next to nothing.

Firstly, my response yesterday "Sorry, I wouldn't call that 'bebop', made in reference to the playing on the specific clips in the comment quoted. Secondly, there's my 'party trick' comment from today.

I suppose - as both responses address ways of 'naming' the playing presented in a specific context (I'll decline the option to deal with other examples) - that conflation is understandable.

But your reading - of implication - into my words gives me cause for concern. If I'm responsible for causing misunderstanding, for that - too - I am sorry.

And I sincerely apologise if such misunderstanding has caused offence or distress to anyone.

For the sake of clarity, let it be understood that when I say "I won't acquiesce" it is - indeed, literally - about "I" alone that I'm speaking.

Having expressed my view, offered an explanation and given my reasons - such as they are - in the spirit of accountability, and without wishing to be churlish, I'm going re-state that I really do take the view that said playing was/is a party trick ('speed' for its own sake being a constant - a gimmick).

Moreover, regarding this:

I notice that you've lumped together quite a coalition -'and positioned them in opposition. With respect, please consider the possibility that I'm not making myself 'arbiter' at all (except in an 'Invictus' sort of way). With a nod to Jürgen Habermas, please consider that your own intimacy with 'bebop' is less Prince than... Prince Charles. (Sorry - that's for 'Donald Trump!)

Let it also be clear that I'm a virgin in that department; 'bebop' is an ideal. I stand by my "Sorry, I wouldn't call that 'bebop'. I'm all for a Joe Pass love-fest, but at least keep it real.

Finally don't overlook another view expressed in a comment in which responded to your polite request for an explanation - and which comment (intended to register my appreciation of Joe Pass in positive terms) I shall copy and repost.

Hey you are an imminently reasonable and thoughtful guy. Youre right, I did sort of jumble a bunch of things together and that was not quite fair to you. You are certainly free to have your own views, and the debate about "what is bebop, really...?" isn't one that has closed.

I want to be clear that while I love Joe Pass, I do not consider him a sacred cow or some kind of untouchable saint. I leave that for Wes Montgomery fans! But I have listened to his music and studied it for decades and the deeper I drill into it, the more I find that I missed early on. So while I don't feel the need to "defend" him on one level, I do dislike it when some simply brush aside his achievement as though it were simply "playing fast" or "crappy tone" or the like.

None of which you actually did, and I spoke to y ou as though you had, which was a careless mistake.

Please accept my collegial regrets for my confusing/confused replies, and know my respect for your opinions and knowledge. If I've annoyed you, then that's a serious thing in my mind, I don't want to do that.

[destinytot]

Hey you are an imminently reasonable and thoughtful guy. Youre right, I did sort of jumble a bunch of things together and that was not quite fair to you. You are certainly free to have your own views, and the debate about "what is bebop, really...?" isn't one that has closed.

I want to be clear that while I love Joe Pass, I do not consider him a sacred cow or some kind of untouchable saint. I leave that for Wes Montgomery fans! But I have listened to his music and studied it for decades and the deeper I drill into it, the more I find that I missed early on. So while I don't feel the need to "defend" him on one level, I do dislike it when some simply brush aside his achievement as though it were simply "playing fast" or "crappy tone" or the like.

None of which you actually did, and I spoke to y ou as though you had, which was a careless mistake.

Please accept my collegial regrets for my confusing/confused replies, and know my respect for your opinions and knowledge. If I've annoyed you, then that's a serious thing in my mind, I don't want to do that.

Thank you, Lawson. Any annoyance on my part comes not from you but from BS around me (hence "I won't acquiesce la- di-da") , and from too much time on my hands before that wonderful thing, a family holiday.

It would have seemed like I was 'protesting too much' if I'd said how deeply my appreciation of Joe Pass goes, and I knew I was treading on thin ice, so I didn't. But it would have been better to say nothing at all. I think it's for me to apologise.

On the subject of which, I'll post an A &B amp comparison tomorrow - modest, but on-topic. Sorry, Groyniad!