How fast is your guitar amp?

**lawson-stone** · 07-29-2016, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Thank you, Lawson. Any annoyance on my part comes not from you but from BS around me (hence "I won't acquiesce la- di-da") , and from too much time on my hands before that wonderful thing, a family holiday.

It would have seemed like I was 'protesting too much' if I'd said how deeply my appreciation of Joe Pass goes, and I knew I was treading on thin ice, so I didn't. But it would have been better to say nothing at all. I think it's for me to apologise.

On the subject of which, I'll post an A &B amp comparison tomorrow - modest, but on-topic. Sorry, Groyniad!

You certainly owe me no apology. And considered opinions about players and playing are what the board is about.

I look forward to your A-B!

**christianm77** · 07-29-2016, 04:24 PM

Mike, I love you man.

I know you respect Joe Pass as we all do... I just think that's not one of his performances I dig so much as some of the others, for reasons probably pretty similar to yours.

Joe was a Great, but he was a human being. Some performances aren't going to touch me as much as others.

Also it's very hard to play Bebop on the guitar Very Very fast, after a certain point I think conventional technique irons out the accents.

A performance I have been digging recently is Lage Lund on Limehouse Blues with the Nickelsen Trio. Fantastic. He has a way of playing at 320ish which is phrased.

But Joe's version is pretty immortal.

**grahambop** · 07-29-2016, 05:28 PM

I think the older I get, the less I enjoy listening to really fast playing. I didn't really dig Donna Lee at that tempo even played by Joe.

Probably I'm slowing down, so I want my favourite music to keep pace with me!

**Robertkoa** · 07-29-2016, 05:51 PM

I can understand why George Benson would not want an Amp with a lot of 'Sag' softening his brilliant pick attack and slice and dice "hard swing " Timing.

It's not like a 'slow amp' will be playing back on Friday those Melodic Lines you played on Tuesday..

George is a real gift to Jazz and Guitar Playing....what a Player.
I've noticed on some clips where he has a fatter tone with more sustain he just goes with it...uses a little more Vibrato etc.

And if he wants to soften his attack he can
probably use his thumb or other ways...and wants the Amp to have that fast tracking ...even though he rarely uses his blindingly fast 6th Gear...that attack is almost always there...

**aboutIt** · 07-29-2016, 06:00 PM

Or go direct to the board like Joe preferred. One thing's certain-- George Benson ain't no Joe Pass, and Joe Pass ain't no George Benson.

**Vladan** · 07-29-2016, 06:38 PM

I would really to hear and see an example, either from OP, other participants from "his camp" or some celebrity, playing Donna Lee @ 300 bpm on both slow and fast amp, so we could be clear about (dis)advantage they experience.
For one, I can not play Donna Lee head at all, maybe first 4- 8 bars @ 120, but when I switch from clean SS combo to Marshall stack, I have this feeling of guitar playing by it self. After a while, when I get accustomed, switching back produces simillar result. Ie, I feel the change. not the quality, so it makes me wonder ...

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**Hep To The Jive** · 07-29-2016, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Mike, I love you man.

I know you respect Joe Pass as we all do... I just think that's not one of his performances I dig so much as some of the others, for reasons probably pretty similar to yours.

Joe was a Great, but he was a human being. Some performances aren't going to touch me as much as others.

Also it's very hard to play Bebop on the guitar Very Very fast, after a certain point I think conventional technique irons out the accents.

A performance I have been digging recently is Lage Lund on Limehouse Blues with the Nickelsen Trio. Fantastic. He has a way of playing at 320ish which is phrased.

But Joe's version is pretty immortal.

I dig this clip! I'm not a fan of Joe in general, but performances like that I enjoy a lot. Sounds a lot like horn lines, in bebop style. So if this is not bebop, then what is? The tone is killer too... fast amp I s'pose?

**Hep To The Jive** · 07-29-2016, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

I would really to hear and see an example, either from OP, other participants from "his camp" or some celebrity, playing Donna Lee @ 300 bpm on both slow and fast amp, so we could be clear about (dis)advantage they experience.
For one, I can not play Donna Lee head at all, maybe first 4- 8 bars @ 120, but when I switch from clean SS combo to Marshall stack, I have this feeling of guitar playing by it self. After a while, when I get accustomed, switching back produces simillar result. Ie, I feel the change. not the quality, so it makes me wonder ...

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Dude, I'd love to hear Donna Lee played through a Marshall stack! It would make my day! If I had Marshall I'd totally do it.

**Vladan** · 07-29-2016, 07:17 PM

If I had Marshall stack I'd learn head of Donna Lee, just to make your day.

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**Hep To The Jive** · 07-29-2016, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

If I had Marshall stack I'd learn head of Donna Lee, just to make your day.

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oh well...

**wolflen** · 07-29-2016, 07:57 PM

I had a 65 twin...now the twin has reverb AND tremolo and a foot pedal-on/off..what I discovered - along with a electric/magic tech guy..is that even if the face dials are at 0..but the foot pedals are ON..there will be some "bleed through" (at least on the amp I had)...thus a "slower" sound...it was explaned to me - but - if its more complex than a ON/OFF switch..im lost...but I was able to detect a slight "pulse" while the amp was in stand by mode..

FWIW...your mileage may vary

**lawson-stone** · 07-29-2016, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Dude, I'd love to hear Donna Lee played through a Marshall stack! It would make my day! If I had Marshall I'd totally do it.

I've actually heard a recording of it done in a heavy-metal "shred" sort of style. It was interesting.

**Para** · 07-30-2016, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by bananafist

I used to use a twin, but when I took the castors off, it was noticeably slower.......

Some years back I bought a BF bandmaster from a keyboard player who said the slew rate was inadequate for keyboards - which I presume refers to the same situation you are discussing. That had a solid state rectifier. I would think most Fender amps would be pretty fast, people like Albert Lee certainly need clarity and definition - although he's a country player.

I've played Rock, Blues and Jazz since I was 12yrs old around 60 years now and to be honest I've never noticed or payed any attention to the speed of an amp whatever that may mean, I just used whatever was available at the time. As to Albert Lee some years back he showed me a little trick setting an amp up using delay which effectively doubled the speed of what you were playing, these days I'm happy with whatever speed I can play at.

destinytot · 07-30-2016, 09:45 AM

My A/B of Evans RE200 & Polytone Mini-Brute:

**KirkP** · 07-30-2016, 10:33 AM

George Benson says he always plays with a touch of reverb on the amp. That makes me wonder if his description of his signature Twin as "fast" means he likes the characteristics of the reverb. Maybe he asked Fender to customize the delay, dwell and/or EQ of the reverb loop to his taste. A reverb with too much delay & dwell or too dark could make an amp seem "slow" when reverb is turned on. Just a guess...

**Vladan** · 07-30-2016, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

My A/B of Evans RE200 & Polytone Mini-Brute:

With presentation this good, I not only buy into "speed of amp", but also woukd believe WMD in Iraq was some electromagnetic stuff made of holographic plasma, by aliens financed fron Putin's blood money, laundered through Trump's bankruped casino.

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**Vladan** · 07-30-2016, 10:55 AM

As it seems, an ammount of hi-mid to high freq, adding to the clarity and perceived definition of attack is being marketed as speed.

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**KirkP** · 07-30-2016, 01:07 PM

Another factor that might make amps be perceived as slow or fast might be damping factor.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor
A power amp/speaker combination with a low damping factor can produce some ringing at low frequencies due to the speaker cone resonance, which might be perceived as "slow". One way to increase damping factor is to increase negative feedback. On a Twin Reverb that just requires a change to one resister value. A lot of guitarists like to reduce negative feedback, but Benson might go the other way. ...Pure speculation.

**Boston Joe** · 07-30-2016, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

With presentation this good, I not only buy into "speed of amp", but also woukd believe WMD in Iraq was some electromagnetic stuff made of holographic plasma, by aliens financed fron Putin's blood money, laundered through Trump's bankruped casino.

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Well... think what you want, but I can hear a definite softer attack on the Polytone.

**Vladan** · 07-30-2016, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Well... think what you want, but I can hear a definite softer attack on the Polytone.

Softer - yes, slower - no.

**Vladan** · 07-30-2016, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by KirkP

... A lot of guitarists like to reduce negative feedback, but Benson might go the other way. ...Pure speculation.

Bad ones, like I am, we like everything hard leveled and muffled, so we could fake reasonably fast playing by passing technical mistakes as some rhythmic variation not too much into listeners face, while good players might be after greatest possible definition, so their great technique would stand in listeners face even more, with occasional garbage being way below in level and practically unnoticeable ... Pure speculation?

**KirkP** · 07-30-2016, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

Bad ones, like I am, we like everything hard leveled and muffled, so we could fake reasonably fast playing by passing technical mistakes as some rhythmic variation not too much into listeners face, while good players might be after greatest possible definition, so their great technique would stand in listeners face even more, with occasional garbage being way below in level and practically unnoticeable ... Pure speculation?

I can sell you a pedal that does that.

destinytot · 07-30-2016, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

With presentation this good, I not only buy into "speed of amp", but also woukd believe WMD in Iraq was some electromagnetic stuff made of holographic plasma, by aliens financed fron Putin's blood money, laundered through Trump's bankruped casino.

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Over the line. Thanks. Bye.

**Skip Ellis** · 07-30-2016, 03:07 PM

I think GB is just funnin' everybody - Jimmy Bryant played faster than GB ever thought of and his old 50's amps kept up with him just fine. Maybe Mr. Benson is just trying to sell amps.......?

destinytot · 07-30-2016, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

With presentation this good, I not only buy into "speed of amp", but also woukd believe WMD in Iraq was some electromagnetic stuff made of holographic plasma, by aliens financed fron Putin's blood money, laundered through Trump's bankruped casino.

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The OP talks about how an Evans feels:

the amp feels like it has an immediacy that other amps lack

and specifically mentions Polytone:

at my guess your classic polytone would be pretty mushy and slow

I happen to have one of each, so I tried to capture my impression as I compared how the response of each amp feels.It is what it is - but I'm glad it amuses you.