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mr benson - in a fender advert - refers to the fact that his fender amps were 'fast'. he says he needed his feature because he plays a lot of fast lines etc.
i just discovered - thanks to my evans re150 - exactly what this means. i was having to wait for my notes to come out with my old amp - now i don't have to wait at all - and it is already improving my playing hugely.
the amp feels like it has an immediacy that other amps lack - they feel mushy where it is crisp. on the evans i have to have the treble at 1 or 0 because any higher its SO crisp that it hurts the ears - i think this is a lap-steel thing - but whatever. i prefer the freshness and crispness of the evans anyway - just as an aesthetic thing. but this speed thing is way more than just aesthetic.
if you're trying to play be-bop - or other forms that require clear fast lines - you need to check out if your using a slow amp. at my guess your classic polytone would be pretty mushy and slow - the henriksen too. but we don't need to name names - its the issue that matters.
i'm pretty sure the feature of classic fender amps that makes them so important to the music is their speed as much as their sound...
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07-28-2016 06:47 AM
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07-28-2016, 06:57 AM #2destinytot Guest
'Fast amp' - who'd have thunk it? Thanks for explaining this concept so clearly. I'm curious to try this out at home later today (with my Evans RE200, whose preamp I've always loved).
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My amps are not fast. Most of all because none have solid state rectifiers, which very much help in how quickly amp output tracks input - without much sag feel. And when I'm playing a head through the 1x15 cab, slower still. That size is mechanically slower to respond than smaller speakers are. So when I plug into the tweed bassman (4x10s) vs the head cab, the feel changes noticeably.
It fits the way I hear and play things, mostly not fast stuff, at least not for any sustained periods of time. I also prefer darker sounds. Tube recitifier sag fits in very well with that preference.
MDLast edited by mad dog; 07-28-2016 at 09:57 AM.
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I used to use a twin, but when I took the castors off, it was noticeably slower.......
Some years back I bought a BF bandmaster from a keyboard player who said the slew rate was inadequate for keyboards - which I presume refers to the same situation you are discussing. That had a solid state rectifier. I would think most Fender amps would be pretty fast, people like Albert Lee certainly need clarity and definition - although he's a country player.
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All my amps (and those of friends) must be blazingly "fast" because I have never in ~50 years of playing experienced a lag time. I guess I am too slow.
Heyyyy... Come to think of it... ther ARE many occasions where I experienced a missing note, I had always attributed it to my missing the string with my pick. Maybe the amp IS so slow that two notes overlapped each other? Eureka!
Maybe I'll start looking for a new amp asking amp sellers how fast they are :-)
Seriously, Benson isn't by any stretch even close to a fast player, now if Yngwie said that he had a slow amp maybe I'd be on board with the concept.
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Interesting discussion. I'm no electrical engineer, so this is just my understanding of it:
Speed is rarely the issue with me, but feel very much is. In tube power amps, using solid state rectifiers vs. tube changes the feel noticeably. Voltage "sag" cause a speed problem if the high demand input is very quick ... the rectifier lags in coming up to that required voltage. The voltage sag outlasts the transient demand. If you sustain the high demand input (held power chord, for example), sag won't be as much of an issue. Still there though.
Even if sag doesn't mess up note timing, you can always feel it. And there are differences between individual rectifier tubes and rectifier tube setups. Solid state rectified tube amps tend to feel "snappy" to me, which probably is a reflection of less voltage sag, faster response to input. Less give, more precise in how the amp tracks your playing. While tube rectified amps get a little softer feel as you play. One of my favorite amps (Ampeg Gemini II) came to me damaged. My tech fixed it up, asked me if I'd like to try a tube rectifier instead of the stock diodes. Yes. A big difference for the better, for how I hear things. Loved that amp.
Not all tube rectification is equally saggy. Depends on the whole circuit too. Try a lo power tweed twin sometime for an interesting experience. Two tube rectifiers used. There is some sag, not nearly as noticeable as you might hear in a loud tweed deluxe for example, but it is there. But you also get this unique "bounce" in the feel of playing it, especially obvious if you use palm muting on chords. A little give, but a big bounce. I doubt it would feel like that with solid state rectification. Not better or worse, but different I'll bet.
MD
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I can detect a latency when I play through a guitar synth but all my other amps sound equally fast when I play a note very fast (mandolin style tremolo). I think the rate of attack can be slower and faster between amps and speaker sizes (more easily detected by ear) and this may be confused with latency in conversations. As a disclaimer, I leave allowance that some people have "faster ears" than others so they might feel differences in latency.
This made me think, since sound waves are kind of slow (compared to photons and electrons), would it not make a difference how far away you are from the amp ? Also, the room echo can give the acoustic illusion of sag.
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i thought it was me - and, oh, 75 percent of it is
but 25 percent was the slow amp
and that's a lot
it felt like it was me missing stuff or fluffing it - and it was, because i was trying to push the amp along - now i don't have to, my playing is much more effective. both hands are much more relaxed and effective.
i'm seriously pleased
i don't mind what is really and truly happening - the improvement in playing was immediate (i'm working very hard at donna lee and thriving between 250 and 300)
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We're talking milliseconds here. You're probably not going to "hear" a slow amp, but you'll feel it. I've played tube amps most of my life, so when I played a Polytone for the first time, I thought it was ridiculously fast. It felt like the note was coming out even before I played it. Personally, I like a little sag. My Dr. Z has a tube rectifier which, as mad dog pointed out, tend to slow things down.
IIRC, the threshold for being able to hear a time difference is 125 ms. Feeling it is another story. And I don't think it's purely a lag, either. I think there's a bit of a "come up" to the note with a slow recto. Anyway, it's not something I really noticed until I started playing SS amps.
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If I could play as fast as electricity I'd need a faster amp. But I'm not that fast, so a slow amp works just fine.
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Yeah I feel my Princeton is pretty slow.
I think the solution is to player fewer notes.
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Originally Posted by GNAPPI
You need to listen to more Benson (jazz club Benson, not mortgage paying Benson), he is incredibly fast.
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07-28-2016, 10:58 AM #13destinytot GuestPlaylist: http://George Benson: http://www.you...e-6fvmJn9zhCb0 Originally Posted by vintagelove
Last edited by destinytot; 07-28-2016 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Add video
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How could a Polytone not be suitable for bebop? That's what the amp was designed for in the first place. Joe Pass never complained that his amp was not fast enough to play bebop lines.
The amp is visible at the very end, btw.
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Btw, this phenomenon is completely true. I seem to see several comments implying it as a joke?
play a vintage super reverb,
then in play a dumble circuit, redplate, old Mesa, etc
if you can't immediately feel the difference, you are severely out of touch with the dynamics of your picking hand. On these fast amps (IMO overbuilt, SS rectified power supplies) if you dig in, you can end up with a note that is painfully loud compared to the rest.
Ive said this before, it bears repeating
A vintage super reverb is like playing into a big soft pillow
a dumble circuit, and especially my redplate, was like a cannon attached to your picking hand.
different tools for different jobs.
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omg so that's why I can't play those Coltrane solos! I was starting to get frustrated
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
interestingly, polytone sort of falls in the middle. Perfect for jazz, dynamic, with compression at the extremes. It's why it feels better than many modern ss amps.
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07-28-2016, 11:09 AM #18destinytot GuestSorry, but I wouldn't call that 'bebop'. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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On a downhill slope, with freshly oiled wheels, my Fender Twin can beat anything.
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I ran into this twice when I was going to show off to friends. After months of playing in a seated position and unplugged, I plugged in and played standing up. I could not competently play songs that I had played for years. It felt like the amp was an echo of what I was playing.
To be fair, I have to add that I was going in cold and I found out later that I needed (and still need) at least 20 minutes to warm up.
Still, I had to really adjust to get in sync with playing on my amp as opposed to playing unplugged, where the sound is immediate.Last edited by AlsoRan; 07-29-2016 at 12:58 PM.
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"Sorry, but I wouldn't call that 'bebop'."
Donna Lee isn't bebop?
I could've sworn Bird was a bebopper.
hmm.....
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07-28-2016, 11:37 AM #22destinytot GuestRead it again, wintermoon old sport - but without adding meaning or sarcasm, please. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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I'd love to know what you mean by this. Joe Pass is one of the premier bebop players. Originally Posted by destinytot
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07-28-2016, 12:13 PM #24destinytot GuestNow, is the word 'that' intended as a reference to: Originally Posted by destinytot
(a) a tune, (b) a player, or (c) a way of playing?
Sorry if I was unclear, but the correct answer is (c). Not with that articulation.
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Elaborate please? Sounds pretty boppy to me. Originally Posted by destinytot
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