How fast is your guitar amp?

[lawson-stone]

Now, is the word 'that' intended as a reference to:
(a) a tune, (b) a player, or (c) a way of playing?

Sorry if I was unclear, but the correct answer is (c). Not with that articulation.

I don't understand here. The great bop players like Charlie Parker have a range of articulation, depending on the tempo, the structure of the line, and the sound they are driving for. I don't see how the single issue of articulation can determine something is not bebop.

Would love to hear your further thoughts on this.

[christianm77]

Now, is the word 'that' intended as a reference to:
(a) a tune, (b) a player, or (c) a way of playing?

Sorry if I was unclear, but the correct answer is (c). Not with that articulation.

Harsh. But I'm listening - please explicate!

[destinytot]

I'd love to know what you mean by this. Joe Pass is one of the premier bebop players.

(I see our comments have just crossed!)

I wouldn't argue against that claim.

I think Joe Pass could play with tone, timing and melodic inventiveness of such beauty as to match - if not surpass - 'bebop' players on any instrument. I think he could, but I'm saying I don't think he was doing so here.

I don't think either of those clips shows him playing 'bebop' music (except perhaps nominally) - mainly because the rhythmic dynamics aren't sufficiently varied to warrant that description, but also (honest opinion) because I expect better (cleaner) articulation. No 'Eye of the Tiger' - I think even NHOP was phoning it in (and that's understandable).

[destinytot]

Harsh. But I'm listening - please explicate!

[mr. beaumont]

Joe Pass was in grade school when bebop was going on!

[destinytot]

I don't understand here. The great bop players like Charlie Parker have a range of articulation, depending on the tempo, the structure of the line, and the sound they are driving for. I don't see how the single issue of articulation can determine something is not bebop.

Would love to hear your further thoughts on this.

Comments have crossed again.

I daresay articulation is to sound what enunciation is to diction. For me, either of those single issues can actually be defining characteristics of both sound and style - which, if disagreeable to my ears as a listener, means 'game over'.

Sympathetic listening leads me to characterise what I hear as some kind of 'swing' - fast (yawn), but I would categorise it as some sort of 'swing' (if pushed to categorise).

And while there's a constant stream of notes, there's too little (if any) dynamic variety for this to constitute 'bebop'. (I tried to make that point in my previous post.)

Now, unlike the opinion I've expressed about the articulation, I rather think that the issue of rhythmic dynamics - a crucial element of 'bebop'-style phrasing - warrants serious scrutiny. Or not.

Joe Pass is safe on his pedestal - but I wouldn't call that (playing in those clips) 'bebop'. Sorry.

[destinytot]

Joe Pass was in grade school when bebop was going on!

Sorry, but I can't quite grasp the inference/implication here. Or is the idea a suggestion that it's unreasonable to expect Joe Pass's playing in those clips to demonstrate (with 'authenticity') characteristic elements of 'bebop'... because of his young age at the time of the inception of that style?

[KirkP]

As someone with electrical engineering training and some hands-on experience with tube and solid state circuits, I'm not sure what a "fast amp" would relate to in technical terms. But I suspect what Benson perceives perceives as "fast" is the combination of headroom (lots of excess power and efficient speakers) and minimal compression/sag (solid state rectifiers). When playing fast at high volumes, sag will cut the volume of subsequent notes, which might be perceived as a delay.

I love playing through a Twin Reverb when I can stand the weight (which is rarely!). The Benson model has Jenson Tornado neo speakers, which shaves off a lot. Since I have one Tornado, I'm considering trying it in my SF Twin along with an Eminence RW&B that's currently in it. I have a feeling I might like that combination, and the weight reduction would be nice.

[newsense]

I believe that people resolve time differently. Our internal clocks can have different of "tick lengths" - if you can detect the differences between the response time of various amps, your tick is on the short side; do yourself a favour and go and have a try out with your local cricket (or baseball) team ! you may be their next ace batter, as you will effectively see the ball in slow motion compared to the rest us long tick length plodders.


P.S. I originally read this post as "How fat is your amp" - which could be an interesting thread in more ways than one.

[Boston Joe]

If I could play as fast as electricity I'd need a faster amp. But I'm not that fast, so a slow amp works just fine.

There's this trick you can do with a bobby pin and an electrical outlet...

[Vladan]

I remember, there was a time when I thought this forum was populated by some kind of intelligent species.

[BigToe]

also, the class of amp might have something to do with the apparent "speed" of the tone. Class A/B amps are more efficient than class A. Class D might be the most efficient in terms of energy consumption which could translate into a "faster" feel. However, the speaker and cabinet would also play a role in the overall vibe of an amp.

as far as Pass and bebop, it's difficult to argue semantics when it comes to style. I think it's fair to say Pass has elements of bop in his playing, but he is not exclusively known as a bop player. I do hear bebop articulation and dynamics in his playing, but his attack is atypical for bebop. For bop guitar there needs to be surgical precision in the right hand, think Pat Martino.

Perhaps people have differing ideas what bop is and hence different conclusions around where JP fits in the jazz lexicon. For me, traditional bop is a horn player's music primarily. I think guitarists are just translating what they've heard from horn players to the guitar, not unlike classical guitarists playing Bach. Also, I can't separate the bebop style with the history of the genre and the cultural conditions from which it was born. There was such a sense of rebellion to the music I don't think you can play bop convincingly without understanding why it was so rebellious and in what way that attitude was brought forth in the music. Precision is fundamental in bebop, arguably more so than other styles. But it's the intent behind the precision that drives the music. Anyway, I could go on but I'll stop there.

[destinytot]

I remember, there was a time when I thought this forum was populated by some kind of intelligent species.

Please expand and enlighten as to why you no longer think so, Vladan.

[Boston Joe]

if you can detect the differences between the response time of various amps, your tick is on the short side;

I don't know about that. I'm on the slow side in terms of my reflexes and reactions.

To me, it's more of a tactile thing. A saggy ("slow") amp tends to feel like it's pushing back against me (this is a physical feeling in my fingers). A fast amp feels like it's almost anticipating the notes. It's hard to describe. I prefer the "pushing back" feeling, but I've gotten used to the other.

Probably Benson prefers the immediacy of the fast amp. Maybe when he gets burning he feels that a saggy amp is dragging. Or maybe he really can hear it. Supposedly Eric Johnson can hear what kind of batteries are in an overdrive pedal. I can't hear it, but I can feel it.

(Edited to add: Maybe this is why I like using a delay. Maybe that extra dimension to the sound kind of mimics the pushback feeling I get from a saggy amp.)

[neatomic]

obviously joe p's amp was too slow for bebop!! haha

back to the op-

the pre-amp tubes, the output transformer and type of of rectifier...all affect..the sag time..it's not latency like in the digital medium..2 different issues...it's more the amount of pop and tube compression..difficult to articulate, but if you are used to playing tube amps, you can feel the differences..i'm with benson! ha


cheers

ps- and i agree with mad dog, speaker size and cabinet design definitely factor in as well...

[destinytot]

....

as far as Pass and bebop, it's difficult to argue semantics when it comes to style. I think it's fair to say Pass has elements of bop in his playing, but he is not exclusively known as a bop player. I do hear bebop articulation and dynamics in his playing, but his attack is atypical for bebop. For bop guitar there needs to be surgical precision in the right hand, think Pat Martino.

Perhaps people have differing ideas what bop is and hence different conclusions around where JP fits in the jazz lexicon. For me, traditional bop is a horn player's music primarily. I think guitarists are just translating what they've heard from horn players to the guitar, not unlike classical guitarists playing Bach. Also, I can't separate the bebop style with the history of the genre and the cultural conditions from which it was born. There was such a sense of rebellion to the music I don't think you can play bop convincingly without understanding why it was so rebellious and in what way that attitude was brought forth in the music. Precision is fundamental in bebop, arguably more so than other styles. But it's the intent behind the precision that drives the music. Anyway, I could go on but I'll stop there.

Nice. "Manners maketh man." Good show.

PS I'd like to reiterate that my "I wouldn't call that 'bebop'" comment - which I stand by - was in reference to the playing in two specific clips.

[mr. beaumont]

Sorry, but I can't quite grasp the inference/implication here. Or is the idea a suggestion that it's unreasonable to expect Joe Pass's playing in those clips to demonstrate (with 'authenticity') characteristic elements of 'bebop'... because of his young age at the time of the inception of that style?

Nah, just bringing up my definition based on another thread we had.

To me, bebop was a very specific time/place thing. It only lasted a few years.

Everything after is bop, bop influenced, whatever...but if you say "bebop" to me, it's NYC in the mid 40's.

[Vladan]

Please expand and enlighten as to why you no longer think so, Vladan.

Realization I was no worse than average attendee.

[destinytot]

Nah, just bringing up my definition based on another thread we had.

To me, bebop was a very specific time/place thing. It only lasted a few years.

Everything after is bop, bop influenced, whatever...but if you say "bebop" to me, it's NYC in the mid 40's.

I didn't see that thread, but thanks for the clarification.

I did check his age, and I saw that Joe Pass was almost ten years younger than Charlie Parker, and about two years younger than Jimmy Raney. Then I remembered Pasquale Grasso - and how old he is. Time and place indeed:

On the other hand, if I were to categorise it, the Joe Pass I actually like (which includes relatively little of his solo output) is probably a sub-genre of 'hard bop'.

Anyway, I'm glad I put my head over the parapet and expressed my view.

[neatomic]

Anyway, I'm glad I put my head over the parapet and expressed my view.

it's the comfy chair for you!! hah



cheers

[wintermoon]

it's the comfy chair for you!! hah



cheers

I remember that one.

poke him w/the soft cushions!
confess, confess, confess!

[destinytot]

it's the comfy chair for you!! hah



cheers

Humble pie or...diet of worms

[wintermoon]

"it doesn't seem to be hurting him lord"

"have you got all the stuffing up in one end?"

"yes lord"

"hmm, he must be made of stronger stuff...."

[destinytot]

'It's the Arts':

[Hep To The Jive]

I was always wondering why some tube amps are hard to get a good tone from. Maybe thats what it is, fast or slow... One thing was always annoying- a powerful tube amp at low volume sounds like absolute crap! I noticed that in guitar stores, you try one, and the sales guy tells you to keep it low, it more often than not sound horrible. Never had this problem with solid state amps though.

On a side note, is Fender Twin fast amp, or slow? Just trying to figure out which type I like.