How fast is your guitar amp?

[Vladan]

All I meant, you did not have to bother shooting the video, I'd trust yor word about your feeling just the same if you only wrote it instead. There's nothing but your word to make me believe what I hear as different sound you feel as different speed/ response.

Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

[destinytot]

All I meant, you did not have to bother shooting the video, I'd trust yor word about your feeling just the same if you only wrote it instead. There's nothing but your word to make me believe what I hear as different sound you feel as different speed/ response.

Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

OK. Thanks.

I agree about the different sound, but at the end of the clip the response of the Evans did feel like suddenly 'going with the grain'.

It was only my feeling, and you could well be right that I was actually reacting to amp sound, rather than amp speed. I know I prefer a bright sound these days.

But my reaction at the time was unequivocally in favour of the Evans - and I've been experimenting by playing through it with a thinner pick.

I'm now curious to test out a bright setting on a Joyo American Sound pedal.

[D.G.]

How fast is your amp is not the question. This is:

[destinytot]

How fast is your amp is not the question. This is:

[Robertkoa]

I think we can all agree: The @#$%^&* Eagles ain't bebop!

True.
But did you guys know that the Byrds Tune
'8 Miles High ' was Musically Inspired by Coltrane also the Guitar Solo in Light My Fire by the Doors...neither sounds much like Coltrane but are you Guys impressed that Roger McGuinn listened to Trane way back then ? Cool Tune also...

Also- although Benson can obviously burn when he wants to ( and sounds cooler than most when he does play fast..) the reason he needs an Amp with fast transient response is that crispy sharp attack on the front of his notes...he is super articulate and a squishy ( "sag") sounding Amp would blur his attack somewhat.

How fast is my Amp ?

I use an old ADA MP1 which does some very clean Fender-ish Tones-
It is so fast that it plays notes before I even think of them-

[Para]

I would have thought that the only time amp speed would come into the equation would be with midi eg. a GK3 etc. I can't see how any amp can be slower than a magnetic pickup.

[destinytot]

Also- although Benson can obviously burn when he wants to ( and sounds cooler than most when he does play fast..) the reason he needs an Amp with fast transient response is that crispy sharp attack on the front of his notes...he is super articulate and a squishy ( "sag") sounding Amp would blur his attack somewhat.

How fast is my Amp ?

I use an old ADA MP1 which does some very clean Fender-ish Tones-
It is so fast that it plays notes before I even think of them-

Yes, 'attack' seems to be the 'thing'.

And I find amp simulation pedals to be a Godsend. The clock is ticking, and I take my health/well-being seriously enough to have made lifestyle changes - sure it's a compromise, but my typical 'rig to gig' is practically nothing... and literally 'pedestrian'!

But I still hope to have a custom tube amp made. For pleasure (at home), and very special gigs.

[christianm77]

I use an old ADA MP1 which does some very clean Fender-ish Tones-

I'll be the judge of that, hair metal boy.

Christian Miller. Fender snob.

[destinytot]

I'll be the judge of that, hair metal boy.

Christian Miller. Fender snob.

PS This is still My Ideal Fender 68 Princeton Reissue versus Fender George Benson

[vintagelove]

Softer - yes, slower - no.

Slower yes.

It all has to do with how fast the amplifier responds to the transients it is presented. This has many causes, from the power supply design, to the slew rate of the opamps used in the circuit.

Do you know what a slew rate is? Of course not. It is a actual measurement of the response speed of an opamp. Guess what, the opamps used in old polytones are far slower than modern opamps.


You are the same guy that posted gems like this

"Amps do not have sound."

"All the circuits (currently in use) "sound" exactly the same."

"Any "amp" can sound like any other "amp"


I would advise folks to ignore any comments from this poster regarding amplifier design and function.

[destinytot]

Slower yes.

It all has to do with how fast the amplifier responds to the transients it is presented. This has several causes, from the power supply design, to the slew rate of the opamps used in the circuit.

Do you know what a slew rate is? Of course not. It is a actual measurement of the response speed of an opamp. Guess what, the opamps used in old polytones are far slower than modern opamps.

Great stuff, vintagelove!

And thank you, Google: ""...amps that have a spongy feel have a slow slew rate..."

N.B. That was part of a response to a question about the meaning of this statement (by a guitar tech):
"Fast slew rate is not necessarily desirable in a guitar amp."

[destinytot]

Fast amp, slow amp, what to wear on one's wedding night...

Enough. Peace.

[Vladan]

Slower yes.

It all has to do with how fast the amplifier responds to the transients it is presented. This has many causes, from the power supply design, to the slew rate of the opamps used in the circuit.

Do you know what a slew rate is? Of course not. It is a actual measurement of the response speed of an opamp. Guess what, the opamps used in old polytones are far slower than modern opamps.


You are the same guy that posted gems like this

"Amps do not have sound."

"All the circuits (currently in use) "sound" exactly the same."

"Any "amp" can sound like any other "amp"


I would advise folks to ignore any comments from this poster regarding amplifier design and function.

Vintagelove, again you prove that apart from knowing how to write down, possibly even pronounce many buzzwords, you don't have a clue what they really are.

Without going into much theory, even putting aside that question quickly deteriorated from SPEED to FEEL, ....
... slew rate is expressed in Volts/ milliseconds, in practice, slew rate of an op amp is anywhere btw 0,5V, more like 10s of volts, up to 100s of V over MICROseconds, even NANOseconds, meaning, it is several orders of magnitude removed from anything possibly connected with guitar sound.

I would strongly suggest people to take all my statements, as quoted by Vintagelove, very seriously, much more seriously than they should be taking marketing sales lingo, even if that lingo came from an intellectual authority such as an average guitar gear pusher on some internet forum is.

[Vladan]

Great stuff, vintagelove!

And thank you, Google: ""...amps that have a spongy feel have a slow slew rate..."

N.B. That was part of a response to a question about the meaning of this statement (by a guitar tech):
"Fast slew rate is not necessarily desirable in a guitar amp."

Destinytot, do you have any background in technical science, at least high school physics 2-4 lessons per week (that you can still remember)?

[vintagelove]

Vintagelove, again you prove that apart from knowing how to write down, possibly even pronounce many buzzwords, you don't have a clue what they really are.

Without going into much theory, even putting aside that question quickly deteriorated from SPEED to FEEL, ....
... slew rate is expressed in Volts/ milliseconds, in practice, slew rate of an op amp is anywhere btw 0,5V, more like 10s of volts, up to 100s of V over MICROseconds, even NANOseconds, meaning, it is several orders of magnitude removed from anything possibly connected with guitar sound.

I would strongly suggest people to take all my statements, as quoted by Vintagelove, very seriously, much more seriously than they should be taking marketing sales lingo, even if that lingo came from an intellectual authority such as an average guitar gear pusher on some internet forum is.

Let me ask you, exactly how much experience do you have in altering the slew rate of a circuit, recording and examining its impact on the sound?

Because I have actually tested this, not only using different opamps, but with the same opamp in the same circuit to eliminate other variables. I have done this in a studio setting using the top of the line equipment. The difference is astounding.



Edit - I removed any offensive remarks, It's actually an important topic. Rather than antagonize each other, we can have a productive thread.

We can disagree (and we do) without being disagreeable. I apologize for the ignore comment in my first post.

[destinytot]

Destinytot, do you have any background in technical science, at least high school physics 2-4 lessons per week (that you can still remember)?

No. I went to one of the last grammar schools and ended up having to study Arts. Why do you ask, please?

[destinytot]

No. I went to one of the last grammar schools and ended up having to study Arts. Why do you ask, please?

I had to choose one science subject: I chose Human Biology (true)

PS And I've seen Blade Runner loads of times.

[destinytot]

I would strongly suggest people to take all my statements (...) very seriously, much more seriously than they should be taking marketing sales lingo, even if that lingo came from an intellectual authority such as an average guitar gear pusher on some internet forum is.

(Keeping personalities out of it) I totally agree with this.

Moreover, no matter who's right or who's wrong, the discussion itself is what matters - that, and using information to think for oneself as the discussion moves forward. So let's not exterminate our dissenters - they're helpful friends.

Hottest day so far in the year - let's Do The Right Thing
<em>

[Vladan]

Let me ask you, exactly how much experience do you have in altering the slew rate of a circuit, recording and examining its impact on the sound?

Because I have actually tested this, not only using different opamps, but with the same opamp in the same circuit to eliminate other variables. I have done this in a studio setting using the top of the line equipment. The difference is astounding.



Edit - I removed any offensive remarks, It's actually an important topic. Rather than antagonize each other, we can have a productive thread.

We can disagree (and we do) without being disagreeable. I apologize for the ignore comment in my first post.

Apologies accepted.

I certainly never did such comparison. I don't quite get "studio setting" variable, though. You were (un)soldering components of an amp circuit to check the impact on sound?
Unless there was some seriously set up test table in that studio setup, the time period btw two possible amp setups would yield any observation on sound quality more less irrelevant, except for the most obvious ones. Same for "responsiveness".

Now, I never said there was no experienceable difference btw different amps, i said what is being experienced is not the speed of an amp. All amps pass the signal equally fast. if we would have to remain in op amp domain, applied to typical guitar sound envelope, recovery time is of more importance than slew rate.

in the end, it's all down to ears, fingers, brain and feedback, ie. psychoacoustics.

if I had to put my money on what in an guitar/ amp combo lead to behavior as observed by player, it would be input sensitivity and impedance matching btw guitar output and amp input, as well as btw various stages (as in functional parts) of an amp, combined with frequency range of the signal and ear sensitivity of player.

Again, it's nothing about speed. Think this way, how long does it take for a hammer to hit the string after the key's pressed on an piano and do you experience any delay?

[destinytot]

Apologies accepted.

I certainly never did such comparison. I don't quite get "studio setting" variable, though. You were (un)soldering components of an amp circuit to check the impact on sound?
Unless there was some seriously set up test table in that studio setup, the time period btw two possible amp setups would yield any observation on sound quality more less irrelevant, except for the most obvious ones. Same for "responsiveness".

Now, I never said there was no experienceable difference btw different amps, i said what is being experienced is not the speed of an amp. All amps pass the signal equally fast. if we would have to remain in op amp domain, applied to typical guitar sound envelope, recovery time is of more importance than slew rate.

in the end, it's all down to ears, fingers, brain and feedback, ie. psychoacoustics.

if I had to put my money on what in an guitar/ amp combo lead to behavior as observed by player, it would be input sensitivity and impedance matching btw guitar output and amp input, as well as btw various stages (as in functional parts) of an amp, combined with frequency range of the signal and ear sensitivity of player.

Again, it's nothing about speed. Think this way, how long does it take for a hammer to hit the string after the key's pressed on an piano and do you experience any delay?

[Boston Joe]

From a non-technical perspective, I have noticed that some amps feel faster than others. I noticed this before I knew anything about rectifiers, or anything else regarding amp circuitry. This is to say I don't think there was a "placebo effect" going on, because I didn't know that amp speed was even a thing. Polytones may be slow compared to other solid state amps, but they're blazing compared to tube amps. When I tried a Polytone for the first time, it really felt like the amp was almost anticipating me.

I've always figured the reason for this was primarily the rectifier, and to a lesser extent, the power amp. But whatever the reason (slew rates or whatever), different amps feel different. I don't think this speed is something you can hear, but I do think it's something you can feel, and I don't think it's all in my head, because as I say, when I first noticed it, I didn't even know there was anything to be noticed.

(Mesa, of course, makes an amp with three rectifier tubes (the unimaginatively named "Triple Rectifier") that is specifically designed to have a lot of sag. )

[Vladan]

No. I went to one of the last grammar schools and ended up having to study Arts. Why do you ask, please?

Because without elementary technical knowledge, and mine is very elementary, you can not judge on technical issues. You can not even google for it effectively, because you would not know what to look for. For example slew rate. You read somewhere about it, see the diagram picture and think ... oh yeah, it is screwing my guitar sound attack....
in reality, it does not, because any op amp is fast enough to deal with any "real" instrument signal without any problem.

Of the most importance, when thinking about electric guitars and electric guitar gear:

- Gear does not deal with sounds, it deals with electricity.

[Boston Joe]

Of the most importance, when thinking about electric guitars and electric guitar gear:

- Gear does not deal with sounds, it deals with electricity.

If the electricity is being put to use in the service of creating sound, your statement is a distinction without a difference.

[destinytot]

Because without elementary technical knowledge, and mine is very elementary, you can not judge on technical issues. You can not even google for it effectively, because you would not know what to look for. For example slew rate. You read somewhere about it, see the diagram picture and think ... oh yeah, it is screwing my guitar sound attack....
in reality, it does not, because any op amp is fast enough to deal with any "real" instrument signal without any problem.

Of the most importance, when thinking about electric guitars and electric guitar gear:

- Gear does not deal with sounds, it deals with electricity.

Yeah - music comes from within musicians.

And you're right about not Googling effectively, of course. I Googled 'op amp', but like Donny, I was out of my element...

[KirkP]

I don't know if slew rate is really a significant factor for guitar amps. But if slew rate does cause audible changes I think it would be exhibited as high-frequency rolloff at higher power levels. Imagine someone instantly turning your treble control down the louder you play, then rolling back to flat when you play quieter -- like a compressor that only affects the high frequencies.

Maybe vintagelove can comment on whether that's how it sounded in the lab.