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No I was just saying people usually don't get on stage, turn their amp or mic on and just go with it.. usually they care to find a decent sound - some obsess with it and others just find something they can live with. Most pros go trough a phase of extreme care about sound sooner or later.. I never saw a guy walking on a sound check, playing two notes and saying "it's good". Acoustics can actually change a lot from room to room but I know my gear so well these days (and I am so happy with it) I can usually find a tone I like and that sits good in the mix real soon. It's a good skill to develop!
I care so much about tone I can't listen to guys whose lines I like. But I understand some people don't think it's that relevant. And I get what you say on my own playing.. some times it's kind of hard to separate tone from musical content and say what is pleasing / not pleasing. And tone is related to rhythm, time placement, dynamics, articulations.. a lot of the time they end up being mixed up.
I get what you're saying about processed sound... I actually enjoy it a lot but it's understandable a lot of people don't!Last edited by jorgemg1984; 11-08-2013 at 09:29 PM.
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11-08-2013 09:27 PM
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This is a cool thread, indeed, and I would love to see a "Tone Family Tree" drawn up. I also think of Montgomery, Benson, and Whitfield in a similar camp. If you watch that Whitfield video, he shares how George Benson got involved in Mark's nascent career. Benson clearly influenced him not only passively - through listening - but also directly, as a friend and mentor.
Mark's guitar is an L-5C built circa 1989-91, as revealed by the ebony tailpiece insert that appeared only for that short time.
Anyway I just love that family of tones. It's dry yet meaty and percussive, and of course the playing by the cats mentioned is deeply soulful and infused with blues and funk (for lack of a better word). I think I'm going to stop dicking around with various guitars and get personal with my L-5C for a while... It's a pretty iconic sound. I'll have to thank this thread and Mark Whitfield for that.
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Very interesting...because I think Montgomery sounds NOTHING like those guys. Not even close.
Now note choice...def. but tone? No way.
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Agreed - I meant note choice, groove, etc. Notice how I confused that with tone?! I guess that's interesting.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Benson and Whitfield are similar tonewise; Wes is on his very own page in the book.
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Loved the enclosed videos. Unfortunately for us, Kenny Burrell always gets his same tone (tail between my legs) whether its a 1957 recording or a 2007 jam at the NAMM show. The guitar is irrelevant, from what I have seen, although they are usually variants on a Super 400. It's his pick, and attack on the strings.
Mark Whitfield does share the tone GB and PM had earlier on in their careers. But my Johnny smith NEVER sounded like theirs. I guess I should've bought a Polytone way back then.
But if I ever got Kenny Burrell's tone, (my favorite for the last 50+ years), I'd stop looking. I promise.
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I wonder if a similar jazz saxophonist's website is asking the same question about guys like Coltrane and Konitz? I think not...
I've always had this feeling of disappointment when a guitarist in the band begins to solo. It's like the whole song falls apart. Great improvisation no doubt...but the tone.
Well, most times compared to a saxophonist or a trumpeter it's less than lack-luster improvisation too. Too many chord-scales and not enough chord-tones.
Mick Goodrick on In Pas(s)ing and his work with the Gonz is a great exception.
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Man you clearly have not hang out with horns or went to their forums... they do discuss this stuff and extensively. Originally Posted by TimPeak
Guitar players love to feel inferior: they think they're the only ones who care about gear; they spit on virtuosity on the instrument much more than other instrumentalists; they want their chords to sound like a piano and their lines to sound like a sax... there are plenty of recordings where the guitar solos are as good or better than the horn ones. Plenty of chord tones on their solos too... (although the brilliance of chord tones and the boredom of chord scales are concepts I will never understand)
If a guitar player cares so much about horn solos why playing the guitar?
Last edited by jorgemg1984; 11-09-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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Jorge, I was thinking the same thing. Go ask a sax player about mouthpieces and reeds. Be sure to bring a comfy chair because you'll be there awhile. I'm just now starting to appreciate the guitar for what it is and not as worried about what it isn't. I do love horn solos though
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Yes Jason, they are as geeks as we are
The thing about guitar players is that there are much more in number and we have more things to care about (cables, strings, picckups, guitar, picks, amps, speakers,.. it's endless). So it can seem like we obsess more but I don't think that's true.
Oh I love horn solos too. All good jazz solos actually.. but I like guitar solos the most. If I liked sax solos more I would play the sax (honestly).
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So true guys; anyone who works with pianists and sax players knows they obsess too. A fab pro pianist in W London startled me by saying how she wished her lines could cut through like the guitar..it made me think. I love horn & piano solos too, but a great electric jazz guitar tone is still exciting after decades of playing. I wouldn't be playing it otherwise.
Don't quite get the point about chord tones vs chord scales either, unless you mean scale running. We all do a bit of that, but it's about how it's done surely.
one thing though; if there was a guitar that could sound like a piano on chords and a tenor on lines, I dunno, I might give it a go
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As I recall, on Whitfield's first album he even credits Benson for loaning him his D'Angelico for the sessions. Originally Posted by rpguitar
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Interesting. To me they sound very similar. I've even heard Benson say in interviews that he felt like his guitar setup allowed him to get "that Montgomery sound". Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think it depends on which Montgomery recording you're listening to. The Half-Note record is a good example, I think.
I can see what you're saying, though. I think the way it sounds to me is something like "how Wes' guitar would sound if you played with a pick".
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I don't understand why such guitars are no longer available from gibson. Originally Posted by Philco
if you are after a gibson big box with floater, you have to look in the vintage market.
you can, at least, get a gibson LeGrand but, I tried one, it is very very far from those tones...
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...and always speaking of "worst guitarist tone"...
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+1 Playing wise, I now find it really interesting to let the guitar's inherent design inform what musical decisions I make, instead of imposing a view on how things 'should' be and forcing the guitar to accommodate. Getting closer to the 'golden mean' sort of thing - a lifelong path Originally Posted by jasonc
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You'll have to forgive me Luca. I'd love to comment on GB's tone . . but, I never really heard it above the music. By the way, were YOU able to hear the music? Or, only the tone? Originally Posted by gianluca
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There are myriad boutique builders with 17" and 18" jazz boxes with floaters. Many are available in the after market as pre owned and at some very reasonable prices. You just seem to be convinced that the head stock needs to say Gibson on it. Have you ever even heard an 18" Campellone with a floater? An Unger? A Triggs? An Andersen? Originally Posted by gianluca
Here's something I've been chasing for a while now . . . just waiting for the numbers to get a little better. How would you think this would sound?
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Most of the Joe Pass recordings and the Brothers Ferre (sp) of Gypsy jazz fame.. absolutely awful in the last few years, though not so bad in the late 80's early 90's. They played with a variety of guitars, it's the extreme quack of the pickupos that makes the recordings unlistenable.
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Originally Posted by gianluca
Yeah what a great clip. I got so excited when I heard this.
It's another pointer toward a spruce top with a floating JS pup with that paper thin top and plum midrange.
This thread is great!
If it wasn't for Benson's solo I wouldn't even listen to this tune.
But here I am transcribing it.
That guy puts life into the music. He just lights it up.
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Obviously, I'm lost case for any kind of Jazz. Neither I understand what's wrong with this tune, nor what is so specail about it, nor if Benson's tone is good or bad. It's like excersise in style of Swing (in all good conotation, think Raymond Queneau's Exercises in Style for a parallel in literature). Goodman is The Master of the style, while Benson stretched it a bit to far, I think.
Anyway, it all sounds just right to my ears, I would not change a thing, except I don't care for 2 solos at once, but guess that goes with the genre.
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I just finished listening to the Goodman - Benson clip for about the 4th or 5th time. Can't really get enough of it. Not really sure how Vladan can see this as just . . . "meh?" I definitely agree with Vladan's comments on not being sure if Benson's tone is good or bad. I tried a couple of time to really focus in on Benson's tone . . I was just totally distracted by the wonderful music he was making. Also, similarly to Vladan . . I usually REALLY . . REALLY dislike it when two solos are happening at once. I agree it does go with that specific genre and period of it. Even more so with Dixieland. But, in this case, I enjoyed it because it wasn't over played. Goodman seems to be recognizing that Benson was soloing and he almost seemed to be complimenting (comping) behind him. The true sign of a consumate professional and self effacing gentleman. Benson was smokin' hot . . as usual.
@Philco . . . Is Benson's solo really the only thing you find worth listening to in that performance? Not sure I can understand that.
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What Patrick said. Geez, guys. This is the Bennie-freakin'-Goodman Sextet. This is why we all play the instrument we do. It's a beautiful tribute to Charlie Christian, and Benson is absolutely killing on this. I love how he keeps his modern sound and licks while still fitting in effortlessly into the old swing format. I've probably listened to the Charlie Christian version of this 1,000 times. This is the history of the music, and especially of the instrument we all play.
Again, no matter how many times this happens I'm shocked at how few people dig the history of jazz on this forum. Few months ago we have people saying they don't care for Charlie Parker, now we're going after a Charlie Christian tune? Weird.
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my Le Grand and Citation sound just fine. amplification, effects and the player's technique do the rest. Originally Posted by gianluca
the answer to your question is most likely... demand.
besides, Gibson's 25.5" scale length sounds more alive than the Johnny Smith 25" scale anyway...
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Didn't I say Goodman was the master , it sounded just right, I would not change a thing and paralleled this recording to one of, as per my sense of taste and humour, the most important pieces of mdern literature ?
Get out of the box, people. That's why Goodman and Benson are what they are. You don't have to phrase your thoughts in usuall manner to pass the meaning of your words. It requiers someone to listen, though.
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Originally Posted by Philco
you mean when they both played Super 400s? Those are still available. Here's a nice one, a collectable one at that. Somebody snatched it though. Don't worry, they'll make more.
The only thing I can't quite figure is the dealers price. The Gibson web site lists these at $17,300. The quilted maple should be a $4-$5K upgrade at max. Maybe $500 for the sunburst. I'm not sure how that gets to $31K MSRP. I would think that final sales price should be closer to $15K, so I'll bet I didn't go for $22K, but you never know.Last edited by fumblefingers; 11-10-2013 at 09:29 PM.
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Jimmy Smith at Newport ('72) Kenny Burrell on guitar
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