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Use your ears, not your brain. I have no idea about the original recording. On this video 1) the head stays on Ab 2) the solos go to RC. This is a fact
Originally Posted by ecj
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11-11-2013 11:32 AM
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Benson does a bunch of different stuff behind Goodman on the A section. He's definitely doing a I-vi-ii-V some of the time, but the A section never modulates to the IV chord like rhythm changes. Philco pointed out that sometimes he's just playing with blues progressions. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Use your ears, not your brain. I have no idea about the original recording. On this video 1) the head stays on Ab 2) the solos go to RC. This is a fact
I dig that early, riff-based swing sound. The bass does some cool stuff on this.
You're correct that they do the rhythm changes bridge (starting from a III7) on the B section in the vid. I was describing the changes to the original recording, which starts with a dominant built off the VII.
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They do Ab Ab7 Db Dº Ab/Eb all the time on the second halfs of the As. Benson bluesy stuff is consciously ignoring the harmony (and it even goes quite well with a #IVº)
Last edited by jorgemg1984; 11-11-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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Looking at the vid again, I see you're correct Jorge. Good ears. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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George, yes. Pat, no. Originally Posted by Philco
maybe you're confusing it w/the Gibson Johnny Smith he used for awhile in the 60's and is pictured w/on the cover of his El Hombre LP
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I agree with the "blanket over the amp" comment. I don't know how people call that "great tone", whether it's Metheny, Jim Hall, or anyone else.
The funniest comment about tone is one in the forum somewhere that I can't find now. Regarding Stern, someone wrote that they appreciate the playing, but his tone "sounds like ass".
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Man I practic(ed) that A LOT... you wouldn't believe it Originally Posted by ecj
I made a mistake, it's actually more something like this Abmaj7 Ab7/D Db Dº Ab/Eb. Sometimes Ab might be triadic or 6.
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I'm so used to the original that I kind of turned my ears off when I watched the vid the first time, I think! Philco picked up some cool progressions over Benson's solos. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Man I practic(ed) that A LOT... you wouldn't believe it
I made a mistake, it's actually more something like this Abmaj7 Ab7/D Db Dº Ab/Eb. Sometimes Ab might be triadic or 6.
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I actually transcribed GB's comping on the first cycle of Goodman's solo. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Man I practic(ed) that A LOT... you wouldn't believe it
I made a mistake, it's actually more something like this Abmaj7 Ab7/D Db Dº Ab/Eb. Sometimes Ab might be triadic or 6.
It's this...I think
2 beats each..
Ab / Ab7 / Db7 / G7/D / Ab / F7 / Bb7 / Eb7 /
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---4------------4-----------2---------3---------4---------6---------6----------4-----------------------------------------
---5------------3-----------4---------4---------5---------8---------7----------6-----------------------------------------
---6------------4-----------3---------3---------6---------7---------5----------5----------------------------------------
---6------------3-----------4---------5---------6---------8---------8----------6------------------------------------------
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second time around he comps something different and seems to just go for something exciting that ascends but doesn't make musical sense other than "it works"........perhaps the best musical sense!
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
Indeed you are correct re Pat. Just looking at the cover now.......and listening.
That is by far my fave tone of his. Just a personal thing.
I actually think that it's my fave playing period of his as well.
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Phil the part I heard was from the piano actually. Db7 makes sense... G7b9/D it's the same as Dº in a way, although they imply different scales. The turnaround part makes sense too, would need to hear it but don't have the time now Originally Posted by Philco
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That has happened tome before actually... I had to reset my aural memory to hear the new changes. Originally Posted by ecj
Yes, Phil is the man
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Disclaimer: I've never played one. Originally Posted by disco~juice
That said, I agree with you - I described their tone in another thread as kind of 'soapy' (???) with not much character - sounds to me kinda flat and dull. Also quite often I hear them fret out when the player digs in. I reserve the right to reverse my opinion entirely if I actually ever play one, but based off countless recordings and youtube clips I've heard, I don't dig the sound. Look really great though.
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I believe that this thread should separate out one issue:
live tone vs. studio tone. live gigs and recordings have so many variables that defeat great sound, its not even funny.
and oh, no judgments based on Youtube videos.
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ok.
do you have some non Youtube examples of their playing that sounds thin?
do those same guys sounds good to you when they don't play Benedetto guitars? they haven't always played them. what about John Pizzarelli and Oberg for example?
what about Jimmy Bruno's CDs when he played a Benedetto?
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A first hand observation of the "Benedetto sound" in context ... I saw Howard Alden and George Van Eps in concert together three times. The first time, Howard was still playing his Howard Roberts six string. There was a very pronounced contrast between his tone and George's. George was using a very dark, thick, soft tone in those years. Howard's was quite bright, much thinner and stringier. the second time I saw them, Howard had received his Bendetto round-hole 7-string. His tone was still quite bright, much thinner and stringier. I think that's just the sound he likes and I think it works very well for him.
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Tone matters a lot to me as a player. It's not a front-of-mind obsession .. instead something I refine through equipment choice mainly. So that I end up playing (usually) through guitars, amps and effects I know can do what I want.
As a listener, I'm much more accepting of tonal variation. Finding it hard to separate a musicians sound from his feel, his melodic sense, even compositional sense. If the sound is displeasing enough, that becomes a too high hurdle, discourages listening. Otherwise, I take it as it comes, and try to not be too judgemental strictly on the basis of tone. It's the feeling and energy of guitar music that most captivates me. What a player has to say more than exactly how he/she chooses to say it.
MD
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I thought Jimmy Bruno's tone on his 16 and 17" Benedetto 7 strings was pretty stellar. I played his 16" during a lesson and even I could make it sound good. That was a very well played in guitar-a workhorse not a case queen.
I think many Benedettos that I have had a chance to play suffer from not being played in. As they are expensive and rare (the pre-Fender built by him especially) many owners tuck them away and bring them out on "high days and holy days". They just haven't seasoned like a 50 year old Gibson.
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Great points . . and often over looked by many, myself included. Originally Posted by SierraTango
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@mad dog . . . . yours is probably the best and most accurate sumation on the matter of "who's got the best or worst tone" debate. I also find yours to be the closest, almost exact same position as my own. (funny how those two sentences work out for me . . isn't it?) Originally Posted by mad dog
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I like classical guitar sounds, strat sounds both clean and distorted, solid body, hollow body, flat top electrics etc. etc.
I like the tone of Pat Metheny (even his synth and the energy it brings), Sco, Benson, Riteneour, Carlton, Ford, Hall, etc.
It's hard for me to understand folks that seem to like just one type of tone. It seems like; I like the cellos in the orchestra, but if the flutes play, I'm just going to walk out.
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The way I interpret the question, fep, is, "What tone are you going for?" Originally Posted by fep
I agree with you. I think acoustic classical guitar is the most beautiful sounding instrument on the planet. I just don't like how quiet it is, and the way it sounds in a setting with percussion. I love the sound of a good rock guitar like Hendrix, but, again, am not a big fan of the way it sounds outside of the context of a rock group.
I love to play jazz, and I also really love the sound of a traditional jazz box. For some reason it works better in the context of a jazz combo to my ears in the way it occupies the sonic space. Then, I spend time thinking about which kind of jazz box tone works the best.
There are plenty of great tones, but there are some I like more than others and kind of envision myself striving after.
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I kind of like and agree with ecj's most recent post. Different guitar tones for different genre. I too like/prefer the guitar tone from jazz boxes. But, I'm just really amazed by how passionate and OCD some people can get behind it. I've seen some on this forum buy and sell guitars solely due to tone. I guess I just don't get that. But, eveyone has their own hot button. Maybe it's because I don't and never have owned a guitar and its tone was something less than what I wished for, or less than what I would consider "to die for" tone. Even if I did, it would need to have many other issues that I didn't like, for me to sell it. If the tone was really horrid . . I would tend to believe that there was some sort of a structural defect . . . and I would seek to have that corrected.
I bought a beautiful Heritage Super Eagle with two inset pups. The former 3 owners said the tone was . . blah . . sterile and a few other adjectives that I can't remember. I was hanging with Joshua Breakstone a few weeks back. I was playing his 1970 L5CES . . he was playing that Super Eagle. We didn't plug in . . just dry and acoustic. I had a hard time leaving his home with my Super Eagel. He offered me cash on the spot for it. Said its resonance was among the best he'd ever heard from a 2 pup arch top. Tone is just soooooo subjective.
I find that I can live with just about any tone unless I truly hate it, to the point where it distracts me from the music I'm trying to hear from the player. Would it be fair to say that some truly hate guitar tone unless they actually love it? I don't get that either.?.? If it's a guitar in my hands and the tone is so horrid that it acts as a de-motivator for me to even play . . then, I hate that too. But, I'm pretty much OK with tone that I don't love.
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Haven't read this whole thread. But número uno of the great player bad tone would be Holdsworth. Has his synth axe died yet ?
Good god. That was awful.
#2-Mike Stern.
Alternatively. The greatest player who had the most beautiful tone -Johnny Smith. Legato chord work with a pick? C'mon !!!!!
And he somehow did it without a pedal chain, MIDI. Don't tell the Gear Page. They don't know about Johnny Smith.
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For me that would be BB King, and Alvin Lee.
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