Worst Jazz Guitar Tone?

**Jehu** · 11-07-2013, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack

I just don't get the point of those pinched harmonics in jazz. They are not musical and they are no where near strong enough to make any statement, and rarely have I seen them done well.

What about Lenny Breau?

**Patrick2** · 11-07-2013, 08:41 PM

I constantly thank the heavens that I'm not a tone freak. When someone says they dislike the tone of a specific guitarist . . Green, Pass, Wes, Birelli . . . etc., I almost always want to ask . . which recording? Which Guitar? Which setting? Unless someone's tone is so horrid . . . (think Pat Martino's tribute album to Wes) . . that I can't stand to listen to it, I really don't care. And in Martino's defense, that terrible tone more than likely had more to do with the mix, the engineer and the production, than it did with Martino.

I'm sure there were times when virtually every top notch jazz guitarist's recorded tone was not great.

I'm pretty sure that if a band leader, producer, club owner, recording technician . . . etc, said to a jazz guitarist . . "I want this session to be more about perfect tone than playing" . . . then, all of those recordings we dislike would sound a whole bunch different/better.

How many of you gigging jazz guitarists just show up at a gig . . set up. . try to tweak your tone . . then, it's 9:00 and time to count off the first tune??? You just go with what you got at the time. How many of the old blues players just showed up, plugged in . . rolled the knobs and played??

Music and musicallity first and foremost . . . tone is an after thought . . IMO.

**steves3972** · 11-07-2013, 08:51 PM

generally i love Wes Montgomery's tone but what is with the fingerpickin album? Guitar sounds horrible!

**steves3972** · 11-07-2013, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Can we put a slightly positive twist on it? Great playing with a tone you don't like?

For me, that's 9 out of every 10 Joe Pass records.

What about the For Django record? That is what I think jazz guitar tone should be...

**steves3972** · 11-07-2013, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by willschmid97

I'd say Metheny's RECENT tone. I think it has to do with his switch to Ibanez in the early 90s. He just not get the same fullness that he got with his Gibson. His Manzer acoustics always sound great, and the Roland synth still sounds cool in some instances, but I just don't care for his electric archtop tone that much anymore.
With that said, I love Metheny's playing and writing to death and will religiously listen to any of his recordings past, present, and future. Tone does not make a player!

I think it's more about the amp setup than the guitar. Not sure about this but I think he switched to Ibanez the same time that he stopped playing the Acoustic 134 amp and started using a digitech digital preamp.
The Ibanez PM models may sound different than the ES-175, but unless somebody compared them through the same amp we wouldn't really know for sure.

**jster** · 11-07-2013, 09:02 PM

Metheny, Scofield, Holdsworth, Frisell, Kranz, Stern

**mr. beaumont** · 11-07-2013, 09:07 PM

Steve, I'm not familiar with that record. Acoustic or electric?

**steves3972** · 11-07-2013, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Steve, I'm not familiar with that record. Acoustic or electric?

It's not acoustic like the Virtuoso album, it's quite a dry but not too bright electric tone. Most likely a polytone.
Listening to it again, there is probably a better jazz tone out there, I like Lage Lund's a lot.

**steves3972** · 11-07-2013, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by jster

Metheny, Scofield, Holdsworth, Frisell, Kranz, Stern

Krantz? Really? A strat through one of the best marshall amps ever made?

The rest I can kinda understand

**jorgemg1984** · 11-07-2013, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

How many of you gigging jazz guitarists just show up at a gig . . set up. . try to tweak your tone . . then, it's 9:00 and time to count off the first tune??? You just go with what you got at the time. How many of the old blues players just showed up, plugged in . . rolled the knobs and played??

Music and musicallity first and foremost . . . tone is an after thought . . IMO.

That I am aware... none. Played hundreds of gigs and saw maybe thousands and musicians care a lot about tone. Some more sure but all care... And it's actually mandatory, you might not care for your tone but you need to have one that sits in the mix.

Tone is actually more important than music to me.

**3625** · 11-07-2013, 09:40 PM

I think the pick is an even bigger factor than the amp, in terms of straight-ahead on an archtop. I've researched who plays with what pick, and I find that to be probably the single most important part of emulating a certain player's tone. Those Dunlop Delrin 1.5mm that Oberg plays can sound a bit harsh at times, but that's because they grip, and 'bite' the string in a certain way that makes them good for playing fast - they provide traction and give each note more definition or 'pop' at high speeds - more so than a very smooth release pick that gives a nice soft tone. Bireli uses them too, but the round tip instead.

**3625** · 11-07-2013, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Tone is actually more important than music to me.

For me it's tone and being in the pocket. If you've got those covered, you could almost not worry about the notes and still sound better than someone who's pulling an ugly sound.

**Melodic Dreamer** · 11-07-2013, 09:50 PM

Mike Stern's distorted sound. I love his clean sound though. lol

**willschmid97** · 11-07-2013, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by jster

Metheny, Scofield, Holdsworth, Frisell, Kranz, Stern

Hmmmm, have to disagree with Frisell being on that list. You really can't approach him expecting traditional warm jazz tone. If you don't like his sound in general, understandable, but I LOVE his sound. Not for the traditionalist, I just love his airy and atmospheric tele tone. It makes me feel good.

**willschmid97** · 11-07-2013, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Melodic Dreamer

Mike Stern's distorted sound. I love his clean sound though. lol

Totally have to agree with you! It gives me a headache, I hate it! Haha, but Mike is one of my very favorites, I put up with it for his playing, completely worth it. His clean tone can be beautiful sometimes, but he needs to fix his dirty side.

**Jim Soloway** · 11-07-2013, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jehu

What about Lenny Breau?

Perhaps there's a terminology problem but what Lenny did was not pinched harmonics. Pinched harmonics as pioneered by Roy Buchanan are created entirely by twisting the edge of the pick near the bridge. What Lenny (and Chet Atkins) did were actual harmonics using the index finger to create the harmonic an octave above the fingered note. Those harmonics were alternated with natural notes on the next string in a tightly voiced chord. It creates the illusion of all the notes being harmonics but in fact it's usually only about half of them.

**Jehu** · 11-07-2013, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Perhaps there's a terminology problem but what Lenny did was not pinched harmonics. Pinched harmonics as pioneered by Roy Buchanan are created entirely by twisting the edge of the pick near the bridge.

Ah, then it is a terminology problem. I thought that by 'pinched harmonics' he meant artificial harmonics... which I think Lagrene is doing, is he not? Check out ~7:11. Fretting so high up is a bit unusual, but those look to me like artificial harmonics.

**Jim Soloway** · 11-07-2013, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jehu

Ah, then it is a terminology problem. I thought that by 'pinched harmonics' he meant artificial harmonics... which I think Lagrene is doing, is he not? Check out ~7:11. Fretting so high up is a bit unusual, but those look to me like artificial harmonics.

They seem like failed harmonics, almost as though he got the positions wrong. They don't seem to chime at all. But again, done properly, they aren't artificial harmonics at all. I know that term is used a lot but they really are natural harmonics. They just have the string length shortened.

**Eddie Lang** · 11-08-2013, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by steves3972

It's not acoustic like the Virtuoso album, it's quite a dry but not too bright electric tone. Most likely a polytone.
Listening to it again, there is probably a better jazz tone out there, I like Lage Lund's a lot.

Steve, are you talking about Joe Pass' "For Django" album? Possibly my favorite Pass record (John Pisano's great comping on it is no stranger to that either -- Pisano is usually on all my favorite Joe Pass recordings). It's from 1964. When did Polytone start building amps?

I think I remember Joe saying, maybe from around the late 1970s but I could be wrong, that although he used to travel with his gear, by then he just brought his guitar and plugged in the PA, a DI or whatever was on hand at a venue when he played.

Although I love the playing, I really don't care much for Jim Hall's tone from the late sixties and after.

**Spook410** · 11-08-2013, 12:50 AM

Maybe we obsess over tone too much. Maybe not. However, it is certainly consequential and part of making music with a guitar.

There was an era of solid bodies and semi's when modulation effects seemed new and fresh and they were used to exhaustion. Our exhaustion.

And Grant Green.. with apologies to his fans, I don't get the content or the sound.

**fritz jones** · 11-08-2013, 12:52 AM

I hate the tone of most of the new young lions like Kreisberg with effects, Hekselmen, Lund, Moreno, Felder.
Some of Rosenwinkels effects really bother me.

Sounds I like are with no pedals, or just reverb.
However, I think guys like metheny scofield frisell and holdsworth use effects well though I don't listen to them much.

Weird that people don't like Grant Green tone, to me that is the holy grail.

**Philco** · 11-08-2013, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Philco

The intro by Sylvain is just...killing.....so good.
Actually I'm surprised by Birelli's tone in this clip because it's actually ok to my ears. Usually his tone doesn't do it for me at all.

Now these guys aren't really that bad! Bless their little hearts, they are trying! - [sarcasm font off].

Birelli Lagrene is perhaps my favorite living guitarist. I like this tone...a lot. Sylvain Luc - knows how to play, too.

Jay

They are both monster players but the thread is about tone.
Tone is very important! It's your voice.

It's like a singer with a crap tone but great pitch. Totally crap result.
Music is emotion.

**Philco** · 11-08-2013, 01:10 AM

Has anyone ever heard a Jazz player (not Jazz/Rock) with a "good" overdrive tone?

I think not.

**Onlyserious** · 11-08-2013, 01:18 AM

Hands down great player I can't listen to: Barney Kessel...so dry, so scratchy.

Also, Scofield's early stuff with the super wide, too deep chorus. It always sounded so out of tune, I couldn't get past it. I'm a huge fan of his stuff of the last 10 years or so.

Funny thing about Birelli's tone--my all-time favorite guitar album is his "Standards." He plays so great and he plays a solid body with a touch of super high quality outboard reverb. I like almost all of the (non-fusion) electric stuff I've heard. His acoustic gypsy stuff--not so much.

**Philco** · 11-08-2013, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack

The Gibson guitar is a Super V and to me doesn't sound like an L5. It sounds more like a Johnny Smith, and that tone is the reason I sold my JS. I now have a L5 CES, and I ain't selling it. I know some other jazz players who feel exactly the same. In fact, one guy has JS with top mounted p/ups like an L5CES, to back up his L5 CES.

I find this a fascinating subject.
This is an opportunity to ask someone who has owned both to perhaps try and compare the sound of the two.

Given that I actually like "some" of the tone of the above Birelli clip may I ask....

That "round" sound I am hearing with the "depth" behind the notes........is that what you consider to be the solid spruce top/floating pickup sound of a Johnny Smith? (amplified sound of course)

How would you describe the difference in amplified sound between the L5 and the JS?

I'm trying to add to my knowledge on this subject and the fact is that I'm never going to be able to play those 2 instruments side by side. (because there is no store here with 2 instruments like that in stock.....and there probably never will be).