Worst Jazz Guitar Tone?

[3625]

Weird that people don't like Grant Green tone, to me that is the holy grail.

GG is the man!!!

There's another angle to this tone bizzo - I'll call it inappropriate tone lol - what I mean is I notice lots of guys playing with a very warm, no treble type sound which sounds great at home, but next to a drum kit or horns the guitar goes straight to the back of the mix and turns into squashy mud. One of the reasons I like GG's tone is because it cuts through and stands up there with the horn players without being harsh.

[fumblefingers]

GG is the man!!!

There's another angle to this tone bizzo - I'll call it inappropriate tone lol - what I mean is I notice lots of guys playing with a very warm, no treble type sound which sounds great at home, but next to a drum kit or horns the guitar goes straight to the back of the mix and turns into squashy mud. One of the reasons I like GG's tone is because it cuts through and stands up there with the horn players without being harsh.

yeah, like Martino in recent years. I don't get it.

[hans halmackenreuter]

john mclaughlin is also a difficult one

[disco~juice]

I also don't like some new Rosenwinkel synth stuff, like whistles and flutes.
There, I said it!

[Spook410]

I also don't like some new Rosenwinkel synth stuff, like whistles and flutes.
There, I said it!

Jeez disco.. next thing you know you'll tell us you didn't care for the Al DiMeola stuff with the synth oohs and ahhhs.

[Toddep]

Some thoughts

Many horn players spend a lot of time working on their tone, playing long tones, matching harmonics to the fundamental, etc... Their tone is a big deal, (for some). I think maybe for some electric guitarists, the amp and effects take away a bit of that quest for tone from the fingers and they search for it in the gear..

A quote I heard, "Straight ahead and strive for tone"

Not to say that gear don't matter


You get badly placed SM57 and it can mess up some tone real quick


I really dig Joe Pass' tone on the "Intercontinental" disc.

I think I'm gonna practice my long tones!! Ha!

[nado64]

Matter with the recordings, musician is not alone, who's the sound engineer ?
The real tone is on the gig' with all harmonies of the instrument.

[gianluca]

.....Those Dunlop Delrin 1.5mm ...... Bireli uses them too, but the round tip instead.

really?
bireli uses those?
where did you read it? I'm very courious
I have been wondering about his pick for a long time...

[kekkuli]

I'd go for Stern too. But then again that is what makes him unique.

[3625]

really?
bireli uses those?
where did you read it? I'm very courious
I have been wondering about his pick for a long time...

Hey gianluca - here's some forum threads where it's mentioned:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...zz/TJzORZ4f47g

http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45

http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4530

He uses the round end - 'upside down'

[jorgemg1984]

For me it's tone and being in the pocket. If you've got those covered, you could almost not worry about the notes and still sound better than someone who's pulling an ugly sound.

True. In fact good sound, good rhythm (and I mean rhythm in the big sense of the word: time, beat placement, dynamics, accents, nuances, subdivision diversity, articulations, etc...) and good ears are only what you need Between excellent tone and poor rhythm and terrible tone and excellent rhythm it would be hard for me...

[jorgemg1984]

I also don't like some new Rosenwinkel synth stuff, like whistles and flutes.
There, I said it!

I agree but he only used that in two records so far - in a very extensive discography. And even in those two records he only uses that sound on a few songs not on the whole record.

[rpguitar]

How would you describe the difference in amplified sound between the L5 and the JS?

I don't have a JS (have played one before). But I do have an L-5C with a JS pickup, which is about 90% the same thing. JS guitar has X-bracing vs. the parallel on my L-5C, but amplified that's not too important.

I was listening to the Bireli clip posted here whilst playing my L-5C, and I was able to nail the tone easily. Difference with a CES? Always so hard to describe tone... But CES has a more "plummy," smooth body to the note after the initial attack. The sound of the floater is a little crisper and... here comes that word: woodier. With the tone knob down, the depth and sweetness is there, but it can get brighter than a CES. Also, the PAF style pickup "gives" more with compression if you pick hard. The JS floater is not as forgiving to that technique.

My guitar is almost identical to the one played by Mark Whitfield on his early albums (it's pictured on True Blue and 7th Avenue Stroll). Move to about 0:50 in this video. He has quite a dry tone here, but it's accurate. The albums sound a little sweeter and more refined:

[Dana]

People always slag Mike Stern's tone. For me, his lines and sense of time is so swinging that the tone really doesn't matter to me.

Frankly, I'd rather hear great playing with bad tone vs. the other way around.

Just my opinion.

[disco~juice]

.........

Frankly, I'd rather hear great playing with bad tone vs. the other way around.

Just my opinion.

Exactly...

[rpguitar]

I guess if those are the only alternatives, then I agree, but only barely.

I prefer good playing AND good tone. Bad tone usually doesn't warrant a repeat listen. I'll be back to hear the good tones again and again. Bad playing with any kind of tone gets shut off within 30 seconds, often sooner.

[mr. beaumont]

That was my thought exactly, rp.

So many great players with great tones to listen to...why compromise?

[willschmid97]

That was my thought exactly, rp.

So many great players with great tones to listen to...why compromise?

Right! I may have tones I like better than others, but besides Mike Sterns dirty tone (and only his dirty tone), I don't listen to any guitar player that has tone that I downright hate. Sure, I like Russell Malone's tone better than Metheny's, but I do like Metheny's tone most of the time. Tone is very important to playing. 3625 said "For me it's tone and being in the pocket. If you've got those covered, you could almost not worry about the notes and still sound better than someone who's pulling an ugly sound." and I find a lot of truth in that. While playing is absolutely the most important thing, tone is your first impression as a guitarist.

Unless I can tell you're obviously a master by the first couple of licks, I don't really want to waste my time with bad tone. Horn players (I am also a trombonist) work on their tone production like mad, what gives us the excuse not to?

[palindrome]

I, for one, like bright tones in principle, but I have found that they reduce my listening span, as they start "hurting" my ears more quickly than darker tones.

While I really like Grant Green, the piercing nature of this tone is clearly a limiting factor to me. For similar reasons, there is only so much time I can listen to Strats.

On the other extreme, I remember a highway scene from my previous life, with me almost going nuts trying in vain to tweak the EQ of my car stereo to follow Pat Martino's single-note playing on one of his nineties records.

For some reason, however, it has never ever occurred to me to think of this as "good" versus "bad" tone. Such thinking introduces quality considerations to what it really about artistic freedom and choice.

Freedom. Choice.

[Spook410]

That was my thought exactly, rp.

So many great players with great tones to listen to...why compromise?

Because sometimes players, in spite of tone, have something interesting to say.

I love the tone Desmond and Getz got and what they played. Coltrane's harsher tones never appealed to me, but what he was playing did.

[Jimmy Mack]

What a great thread! Deep.

[coolvinny]

I think tone definitely matters...nothing wrong with trying to get a good tone. Horn players spend a lot of time working on their "sound" which is their tone, and they are encouraged to do so. Having a nice sound is important.

I had a little gig earlier this week and recorded it - I think I had too much gain in there. Sounded a bit too processed even though it was just guitar to amp. I'm going to use that info to improve my sound.

p.s. I think Coltrane had a GREAT sound in the Workin/Relaxin/Cookin albums, as well as Kind of Blue.

[Philco]

My guitar is almost identical to the one played by Mark Whitfield on his early albums (it's pictured on True Blue and 7th Avenue Stroll). Move to about 0:50 in this video. He has quite a dry tone here, but it's accurate. The albums sound a little sweeter and more refined:

That's pretty much the sound I'm after. Thanks Roger.
So a L5-C with a JS pickup or a JS.
That sound is so reminiscent of a very early Martino and Benson sound. The sound that made me want to play jazz guitar in the first place.
You nailed it Roger.

[Patrick2]

That I am aware... none. Played hundreds of gigs and saw maybe thousands and musicians care a lot about tone. Some more sure but all care... And it's actually mandatory, you might not care for your tone but you need to have one that sits in the mix.

Tone is actually more important than music to me.

So then, what you're saying is that of the hundreds of gigs you've played . . and the thousands you've seen . . the tone was always spot on to die for? Hmmmm . . .

I never said that musicians don't care a lot about tone. I said I really don't understand how they could obsess over it. Perhaps when (if ever) I get to that point in time where my playing speaks for itself . . I might start to obsess over tone. But, that time is a long way off.

Also, I think you might have misinterpreted the question you responded to. Everyone has their own sweet spot settings on their own amp. More often than not, you're playing you own rig and the acoustics from room to room are not so different. As such you might not need much tweaking. But, sometimes not. Sometimes, you show up, play through a different amp . . maybe a house amp . . maybe a borrowed amp because yours is down. Sometimes, the band's instrumentation varies . . you need a tweak here and there to be proper in the mix. You don't always have a chance to get it perfect . . sometimes you don't even have a chance to get it real good. When the time comes to play . . and you're somewhere near where you want to be . . you just go with what you've got.

Also, I really doubt that tone is more important than music to you, as it relates to your own playing. You're a very seasoned pro. The music and the playing are a given. There already there . . with no need for tweaking. The tone can be tweaked further to your satisfaction.

The only tone I've heard that I absolutely can't live with, as it relates to jazz guitar tone, is tone that effected to the hilt with processors. Many players have already been mentioned . . but, Metheny through his guitar synth is a total turn off to me. Sco with the chorus or flange, Stern with the distortion. I just can't listen to that.

Take the video of Whitfield in this post. I found his upper strings, 1st, 2nd 3rd . . to be quite thin. . anemic. Almost sounded like .011s. But, the lower strings sounded great. Watching and listening to him play . . he seems quite focused on his lines . . more so than his tone. His pick attack was really sensitive . . no digging in at all. But, had the video not been posted as an example of tone . . I doubt I would have keyed in on that right off the bat.

If jazz guitar tone hasn't been effected with processors and it sounds absolutely lush and lovely . . yeah . . I really love that. Similarly with my own guitars and my own playing. But, if the tone is less than perfect to my preference, but the playing is good . . I've got no problem with that.

[ecj]

Weird how different people's impressions are. Count me in the camp that loves the Whitfield tone. I guess that's really Benson's sound, in a number of ways.

I've always thought the chart looked something like this: Charlie Christian > Montgomery/Hall

Hall picked up on the thickness and darkness of the Christian tone and pushed those extremes to the limit. Montgomery picked up on the percussive nature of the tone, and the "roundness" of the attack, and pushed that. Before all the processing stuff comes in (just guitar through amp) everyone sounds like Charlie Christian to me, and then either more or less like either Hall or Montgomery.

When I was younger I really dug the dark Hall sound (like Metheny adopted later in his career). Lately, I've been more into the Montgomery sound (via Benson).

There are, of course, variations. But to me, that's the big divide.