Jazz guitar arpeggio drills

**henryrobinett** · 01-19-2016, 07:13 AM

This is not atypical of Jay. Unfortunate yes. He tends to derail threads with bloviation. He tends to the blow hard, massive ego. I'm sure there's a nice guy in there some place but he doesn't come out a lot.

Why he's on a jazz guitar forum I just don't know. He likes to try and pretend he's WAY better than he is. It's a game. I think he's bored.

**grahambop** · 01-19-2016, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

This is not atypical of Jay. Unfortunate yes. He tends to derail threads with bloviation. He tends to the blow hard, massive ego. I'm sure there's a nice guy in there some place but he doesn't come out a lot.

It reminds me of that Shakespeare quote:

"...full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing."

Quite entertaining though.

**henryrobinett** · 01-19-2016, 07:34 AM

I don't find the entertainment. He's just offensive.

**boatheelmusic** · 01-19-2016, 07:50 AM

Maybe if he posted his offerings on the tune of the month club ............

I have found the most frequent posters can be the least frequent players....Show then tell....

**henryrobinett** · 01-19-2016, 08:01 AM

It took a good two or three years to get him to post the song or two he did. After much bragging he kept saying it was coming. I will never criticize those who attempt and participate. But I can't stand those who criticize from the sidelines and don't. At least he finally did it. Bravo the effort. But when his nose gets pushed he lashed out nastily.

**christianm77** · 01-19-2016, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

Maybe if he posted his offerings on the tune of the month club ............

I have found the most frequent posters can be the least frequent players....Show then tell....

Yes, I think preparing videos/audio for the forum is a much more productive use of ones time than arguing the toss about this or that ... (Note to self ;-))

I can't help but feel that Jay would learn a lot from regularly doing this. But you can't do it from the perspective of having something to prove, I don't think.

**christianm77** · 01-19-2016, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

It took a good two or three years to get him to post the song or two he did. After much bragging he kept saying it was coming. I will never criticize those who attempt and participate. But I can't stand those who criticize from the sidelines and don't. At least he finally did it. Bravo the effort. But when his nose gets pushed he lashed out nastily.

There will always be people like this. I have a strong tendency to be over critical myself... (Not so much the bragging side I hope.)

The Internet can give free reign to that type of thing. It's easy to slip into.

destinytot · 01-19-2016, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by jazzguy100

see I don't need to be told where I need work I can figure that out for myself. I know I've gotta a lot of time stuff to work on and it's taking me years. thats how long it takes. And I aint trying to be rude. I call it like I see it.

Excuse me for saying so (as it may not offer much consolation), but - despite clearly being directed at you - I don't think those comments say anything about you.

I agree with what boatheelmusic says about the purpose of being here:

we're all here to work, develop and share.

I see that as an ideal. How can one tell when it has been achieved? In a classroom, there are signs that are easy to spot - which indicate empathy, respect and trust, which generate confidence, and which lower (rather than increase) anxiety - and I don't see that the norms are particularly different here

My main concern is the use of language: I think it tends towards coercion (and not cooperation). I don't believe this is conscious or intentional, but I think it's - er - 'a chronic condition'. And I think it deserves sympathy.

But, exposed and acknowledged, I think it should be reined to a gentle stop - as not to do so would be intentionally cruel and hurtful.

Just my 'two cents' (whose value I, at least, appreciate). Back to a life of bliss.

**christianm77** · 01-19-2016, 08:49 AM

@jazzguy100

Everyone has different reasons for being on here. Usually I come on because I am bored, because I feel I can add something genuinely helpful to a question, but most often because it helps me formulate my thoughts. I'm also open to the possibility of learning something.

I would always esteem the advice of a colleague, or a respected teacher above anything I read here. I hope I don't offend anyone by saying that. But one thing I learned the hard way as a mostly self taught player is that you do need advice from the outside. you will overlook stuff.

Do you have a teacher?

**Vladan** · 01-19-2016, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by jazzguy100

forget key signatures, forget reading, you should know this stuff like nothing. If someone says play diatonic arpeggios for C# mixolydian in 1st inversion moving in cycle of 4ths then you should be able to do it and that's an easy one. If you can't then you've got no time to waste.

I'm a failure, please help. I understand where it comes from, but am lost towards the end.

C# mixolydian, OK, notes should be of F# major scale, starting on C#, but I'm lost on "1st inversion" part?
What is 1st inversion? Is it like gong 3571, so 1st arpeggio should be of C#7 starting on note F?
Should I ...

1. play all 7 arpeggios from C# before moving for a 4th, to ... F# mixo, then B mixo , E mixo ..., *and play all 7 from each scale/ mode ...?
I guess first move is to F#, if C# is V F#, then F# is IV of C# and the task is to move in cycle of 4ths?
Or
2. I should move in 4ths (start from every 3rd note in a row) within C#, from C# mixo to F# Ion to B Lyd to F Locr ..., *and play each of those ...?

*... starting from it's respective 3rd, or whatever the meaning of 1st inversion may be?

**matt.guitarteacher** · 01-19-2016, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

This is not atypical of Jay. Unfortunate yes. He tends to derail threads with bloviation. He tends to the blow hard, massive ego. I'm sure there's a nice guy in there some place but he doesn't come out a lot.

Why he's on a jazz guitar forum I just don't know. He likes to try and pretend he's WAY better than he is. It's a game. I think he's bored.

I was there with you, for that, Henry. Along with Jeff and others. At the time, I thought it was a profoundly positive thing. Long-term, I feel like it's effect is nearly zero.

I agree with Mark that it's a unique problem. There's willful and malicious trolling, with ill intent,.... and then there's THIS. I don't even know what to call it. Just disturbing, but it probably needs to be dealt with in the same way.

Ignoring it basically achieves nothing. Of course, rational argument is even less effective. It just always turns into a conversation about him.

In the end, regardless of anyone's emotional state, it IS actually belligerent to continue talking about topics which one has no interest in, while talking down to others , preaching, and generally being rude and arrogant. It's still trolling, regardless of intent, Ito continue talking about things you don't care about, for the sole purpose of disrupting and drawing attention to oneself.

What's the protocol? I'd say report it and don't feed the beast by engaging. I know I'm as guilty as anyone, enjoying a little too much at times, but this is not the first thread, for those who are new. Dozens like this before became about him rather than the original topic, completely derailed and stifling real conversation, and not for lack of others trying to ignore it and move on.

**targuit** · 01-19-2016, 10:08 AM

Whoa! What did I say to jazzguy that was so offensive?

And before I repost that, I want anyone commenting about my behavior and comportment to read the posts Jazzguy put up here in my regard first. Then, come back and reprimand me. I had complimented Jazzguy on his version of Stella before finally brutally lashing out at him with the cruel rejoinder -

"Timing off, rambling disorganized solo with little inventiveness and lacking cohesion. And that is being polite."

Wow! That certainly sounds vicious in comparison to the following posts by Jazzguy in my regard that precede any significant comments by me. I will dig up a few since some of the bullies here that like to rouse the rabble seem incapable of reading posts before making comments.

Jazzguys sign off moniker or whatever it is called:
"talking more than playing makes you a better talker than a player"
"if you can't explain something simply then you don't know it well enough"
"the more you talk the more full of shit you are"- only pick one

"...Well now I've heard your playing, I think you should do more practicing than talking. It's alright if you want to puff your chest out and give your opinion as long as you can back it up. "

Oh! So now we have to whip out our d--cks to see whose is bigger before expressing an opinion? Back it up?

And finally this last comment - "If you can't play a Gb-7b5 arpeggio over 2 octaves straight away then you don't know your arpeggios well enough to be lecturing others on how to learn them."

While I appreciate JG's passion for arpeggios, though perhaps my classical concept of arpeggios and etudes are differ from the "Arp drill" which appears to be widespread in jazz circles, I am to ask if I am worthy of expressing an relatively benign opinion before doing so. Do you work for the TSA or something?

Of course, a forum is just like a grade or middle school playground, where certain bullies like to do their domination thing to compensate for some deficiency or other. And bullies also are ringed by the more timid individuals who are afraid not to align with the bully. And the name of the game is intimidation. The government does the same thing to silence people in other ways.

Look at what I actually said on the thread and in regards to JG before ganging up. Of course, that does involve actually reading the posts.

**targuit** · 01-19-2016, 10:14 AM

Matt - Why don't you post your comments here in my regard? I don't have time nor the inclination to do so, as I am trying to help my son's financial college application stuff and my business wind down. I would post more music if other priorities did not supervene. And I am a little technologically challenged in the process of posting YT videos. That is something you can truly laugh about, but it is true. (I know I'm supposed to use a smartphone - I actually use it as ...a phone.)

In any case, guys, be fair. Look at the posts here and tell me I'm some ogre trying to sabotage the discussion. I thought I was rendering an opinion.

Matt - please post your salient exchanges here. Some of the guys are quick to talk and slow to actually read before they do so.

Oh, one last thing. Since Graham was kind enough to link my The Shadow of Your Smile video, and though I dislike the sound through tinny computer speakers (if you listen, please try headphones for better audio), rather than attack me personally here, please feel free to critique my playing on that cut.

Graham, who is an excellent player, notes that my one recorded 'jazz solo' is on this historic clip. Kind of like Charlie Christian - not a lot of archived material

. (I put those in to let you know I'm joking ....the comparison to Charlie...oh, never mind, I've probably offended Charlie and will be hearing about it personally soon.)

I think this is meant to demonstrate my insufficiency at playing jazz and lack of proper arpeggio drill experience, not to mention my lack of sufficient genuflection before the big boys and acknowledged Wise Men of the forum and lack of patriotism and character. But when I listen to this master work, which is a bossa nova after all played with two guitar tracks - nylon and electric solid body through a tinny little battery operated type amp - I don't think it sounds too bad.

But then again, I am not worthy....

**targuit** · 01-19-2016, 10:18 AM

I will not comment further unless specifically requested to do so on this thread, but I hope anyone inclined to gang up would actually review what I did say before coming to a judgment as to my comportment on this thread.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 01-19-2016, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

I will not comment further unless specifically requested to do so on this thread,

Thank you

Originally Posted by targuit

but I hope anyone inclined to gang up would actually review what I did say before coming to a judgment as to my comportment on this thread.

I find it peculiar, though not surprising, that you feel everyone has arrived at their conclusions about your posts WITHOUT having read them. I certainly read them, and all of my comments are directed directly at them , as well as the overall tone of your collective comments.

Interesting, anyway.

**Reg** · 01-19-2016, 11:53 AM

OK... I think I'm over the problems of Arpeggio drills.

I'm nobody and old... but it really seemed that while I was doing the learning thing when I was young, I generally listened to older players. And even paid more attention to the cats who could actually play... I went to the jazz clubs even before I could get in.... and sometimes did get it. Checkin out great players play a few nights in a row, maybe covering the same tune on a few nights... or even better a tune I new....

I was lucky to have opportunity to play jazz gigs while still a kid, with old dudes. There was no easy access to forums like this place...

If you wanted to get better on your instrument... it was work just finding the information... a teacher who had some kind of idea what jazz was and how to get the skills. I picked up a lot of my road info from Sax players and a few pianist... Organ trios. I watched the transition from using traditional maj/min functional harmony and from Harmonic minor... being altered or added notes to Melodic minor... Not in the actual time frame... but through the meeting and playing with different musicians.

Later I did get a few degrees etc....the education didn't teach me how I hear, it did help with terms and the process of organization and history... anyway, learning to play and also to perform arpeggios, in all forms of organization was just part of the basic language of playing the music. If I didn't have the technical skills, I couldn't see how I could perform. This was kid logic, not complicated, not trying to sell or convince anyone but myself that I needed to do the work....

**henryrobinett** · 01-19-2016, 12:22 PM

I hear you Reg. There was a sense of respect. I sought information from people who had information and were willing to share. That's why I'm here, to share. I'm not really seeking information on how to play. But when guys who clearly have not arrived just push their chest out I ignore them, or leave. I will no longer engage or read the person in question's posts. Period. I'm done.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-19-2016, 02:30 PM

This has gone on far too long. In my opinion, targuit has been the skunk at this garden party. Not a troll---he loves music, plays guitar, often contributes appropriately---but in this case he has demonstrated a level of obtuseness that is hard to square with his years and education. Understanding that is outside my skill set, and certainly outside of my role here as a moderator. But I apologize to all for not bouncing him FROM THIS THREAD when it first became apparent he was just ruining it for everyone else.

**coolvinny** · 01-19-2016, 05:11 PM

Seems to me a lot of aggravation could be avoided by using the "ignore" function! I've had certain fellas ignored for a long time.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-19-2016, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by coolvinny

Seems to me a lot of aggravation could be avoided by using the "ignore" function! I've had certain fellas ignored for a long time.

That is certainly an option worth considering. For those who have used it, will you still see a thread started by someone you have put on ignore?
Also, if you're participating in a thread that includes someone you ignore who is posting in that thread, can you still make sense of the thread?

**jazzguy100** · 01-19-2016, 05:28 PM

I put some people on ignore but there's always the ability to see their posts anyway. I don't feel the aggravation everyone seems to feel. I am not insulted by what anyone says to me, its just a screen with some words. I hate getting caught up in some petty argument making it into some dick measuring contest. I just needed to call him out.

**jazzguy100** · 01-19-2016, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

That is certainly an option worth considering. For those who have used it, will you still see a thread started by someone you have put on ignore?
Also, if you're participating in a thread that includes someone you ignore who is posting in that thread, can you still make sense of the thread?

you can still see their posts, they are hidden you can choose to show. but you cant see their posts on the activity stream

**MarkRhodes** · 01-19-2016, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by jazzguy100

you can still see their posts, they are hidden you can choose to show. but you cant see their posts on the activity stream

Thanks. I had wondered about that.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-19-2016, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by jazzguy100

I don't feel the aggravation everyone seems to feel. .

Perhaps when you've been here longer you will... ;o) Part of the aggravation comes from the "here we go again" factor, which you don't experience the first time.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 01-19-2016, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by jazzguy100

I put some people on ignore but there's always the ability to see their posts anyway. I don't feel the aggravation everyone seems to feel. I am not insulted by what anyone says to me, its just a screen with some words. I hate getting caught up in some petty argument making it into some dick measuring contest. I just needed to call him out.

It's not just me personally and my own feelings though. I can someone ignore obnoxious behavior, but very often, others entirely leave the conversation once somebody starts being obnoxious. Not everyone is equally as thick-skinned. Obnoxious always wins out it would seem. Very frustrating, especially when you're interested in the conversation in the first place.