Jazz guitar arpeggio drills

[matt.guitarteacher]

Matt - Here is a quote from my post that, unlike your assertions, is factual -

"But in any case, speaking as someone with fifty years of experience, I think that the song vehicle itself presents the ideal context to learn anything relating to technique or theory. While I agree that one needs a solid technical foundation, I am not convinced that one has that much to gain beyond an adequate or hopefully superior technical dexterity with the major and minor diatonic scales. That and the demonstrated ability to play what you hear."

Apparently a radical statement in some quarters. If you are going to malign me, Matt, at least have the decency to quote me accurately.

I'm still irritated that you accused me of killing birds. Where did I say that?

[boatheelmusic]

Guys, please chill and make up - we're only talking about arpeggios, something we must all know one way or another.....

[kofblz]

I recently discovered a fun and easy way to connect all the positions of any given minor 7th arpeggio. Usually it involves sliding between the b7th and the Root and then changing fingerings and voicings. It's quite easy to create an endless loop between 2 positions or move smoothly up or down the neck.

There's just something about the layout of the minor 7th arpeggio that makes it a great path to go all over the place really quickly. It lines up good for triplets too.

[fumblefingers]

Matt - Did you ever study the classical guitar? I don't recall you ever mentioning it. I did at the age of twelve for four years. So I certainly know what arpeggio studies are intended to develop in the beginner and intermediate level player. Am I to presume that you studied Sor or Carcassi? Regardless of your experience why do you misquote me to then mow down your strawman? Find me the quote where I said it was "a waste of time" or retract that from your post.

All I suggested was that playing arpeggio studies in and of themselves is boring to some of us who actually did them for years. That does not make them useless or a waste. I believe that making musical pedagogy about actually making real music is more inspiring to students.

Perhaps you could politely explain why one should not use the study of actual jazz standards as the harmonic context for doing your arpeggio studies? In other words what is wrong with that notion? For your information the reknowned Martin Taylor suggests playing through tunes that are new to you in precisely that fashion. Need a citation of that fact? Watch some of his teaching videos on YTube. I don't recall the numerous occasions, but I can say for sure that it is on his DVD of Jimmy Van Heusen songs.

I am perfectly well aware that learning new songs is not the purpose explicitly of doing 'arpeggio studies' but why not "kill two birds with one stone" as it were?

Btw I like Reg's video on his version of arpeggio studies. I would have to rewatch that video (last one) to see if one can understand what type it was. But, while you like to isolate me as being a dissenter from the Party Line, you really do me a disservice with your petty "I really don't believe you are sincere." Rubbish....

i think you're over-complicating this.


William Leavitt's books 2-3 represent but one example for basic arpeggio studies. There, ya done been told.

From there you can keep going into more jazz vocab oriented applications:
Barry Galbraith's book on daily exercises for Mel. and Harm. Minors,
Mike Steinel's book on Jazz Vocabulary
Mimi Fox's book was mentioned
Joe Elliot
Joseph Alexander's books
Garrison Fewell's books
Corey Christiansen's books
Joseph Viola's books
etc., etc., etc.

[Reg]

Yea... it's not complicated... If you don't want to develop the skills of arpeggios, don't.
But if you do... it's been explained, at least how to go about it. There are different approaches... but the results are different also.

Again basic info. Your always working on many aspects of playing, and you try and balance your time to have improvement on all those aspects... somewhat together.

There are technique skill... of which arpeggios are part of... and there are
Performance skills of which using those arpeggios to perform music is.

Target... Jay your not a professional musician, Your technical skills are somewhere in the middle at best. Young students or amateurs need advice to help get their shit together on their instrument.

Constantly giving useless information about how you view this or that, generally off target... really doesn't help.
When you ask a student to play a two octave arpeggio of Gb-7b5, do you have a clue of how to finger or play. Maybe play that same -minor7b5 two octave pattern in a cycle of ascending major 3rds ... beginning on Gb.

That would be basic arpeggio skills, well probable not basic for amateurs... but most jazz pros.

Now use those min7b5 arpeggios and embellish from different harmonic sources... from nat. minor, from Melodic etc...

If your going to ever get to the point of actually being able to perform jazz in live setting... your going to need different skill sets... well beyond classical lessons or basic music references.

You can't use arpeggios playing through tunes until you can play them on your instrument. Your not going to be able to hear the notes of arpeggios until you can play them on your instrument.

If you need to go through the process of figuring out the notes and where to play them... you need to work on your technical skills on your instrument(s) more.

[targuit]

Reg - Thanks for your critique of my skills. I should refrain from commenting on your tenuous grasp of the English language. But for your information, I have never done an arpeggio "drill" in my life and the news that a "drill" is different from a "study" is news to me. And no, I have never done a "drill" based on Gbm7b5, but if you write it out or if you could possibly explain what the hell you are doing, I sure as hell can read and play it. What conceit!

And let me know when your next CD of arpeggio studies of m7b5's comes out so I can download a free copy....

[smokinguit]

Reg - Thanks for your critique of my skills. I should refrain from commenting on your tenuous grasp of the English language. But for your information, I have never done an arpeggio "drill" in my life and the news that a "drill" is different from a "study" is news to me. And no, I have never done a "drill" based on Gbm7b5, but if you write it out or if you could possibly explain what the hell you are doing, I sure as hell can read and play it. What conceit!

And let me know when your next CD of arpeggio studies of m7b5's comes out so I can download a free copy....

What does Reg's "tenuous grasp of the English language" got to do with this discussion? The man is a pro trying to help us non pro's out. Calm down dude.

[smokinguit]

BTW I really enjoy your posts but I don't understand what's gotten into you, man.

[Reg]

Yea, sorry for BS... but here you are Jay a notated example of playing two octaves of min7b5 arpeggios in major 3rd cycle beginning on Gb, meaning play Gb then up maj.3rd to Bb then up to D and then your back to Gb. Obviously Gb-7b5 would generally implies Abb maj tonal reference... so the point was really if you didn't realize there isn't really a Gb-7b5... really should be F#... again just another technical detail to show how one needs to understand their fretboard...

[smokinguit]

Yea, sorry for BS... but here you are Jay a notated example of playing two octaves of min7b5 arpeggios in major 3rd cycle beginning on Gb, meaning play Gb then up maj.3rd to Bb then up to D and then your back to Gb. Obviously Gb-7b5 would generally implies Abb maj tonal reference... so the point was really if you didn't realize there isn't really a Gb-7b5... really should be F#... again just another technical detail to show how one needs to understand their fretboard...

Reg, I see that you made a mistake with the notation for the Dm7b5 arpeggio in the 5th measure. Instead of a c natural (b7) you flatted it making it a diminished arpeggio. Also, in the 6th measure you used the note B natural instead of C when descending. Just thought I pointed that out.

[targuit]

Reg - Thanks for the pdf. I'm puzzled by notation that in some fashion should have a reasonable key signature, and I don't care for the style of not writing in a specific key signature. Now, the type of arpeggio studies (hate that word "drill") that I am familiar with are those of Sor and Carcassi. Or Villa-Lobos.

I just sat down with the guitar and played what was written. This is precisely the type of exercise that I don't care to do and consider counterproductive to playing jazz or any other style. Why? For one a diminished chord is a chord of transition. The type of run in that exercise is detrimental in my view to my classical as well as jazz style playing because it is unnatural. The last thing I want to do is to ruin a fluid and cultivated technique with a "drill" that forces my hands into unnatural position. Hopefully you will respect my opinion as I respect yours. But this is not an arpeggio study in the classic sense, nor the type of piano arpeggio studies of which I am aware. That this may be derigeur at Berklee means nothing to me at all. But thanks all the same.

Currently I am extremely engaged in copying patient records after closing my medical practice in October and very busy doing financial aid forms and scholarship stuff for my brilliant son who is a senior applying to college as the highest ranked male student in his class.

Guess he takes after his mother. In any case, once these mandatory deadlines and the absurdly complicated work associated with college application are done, I will find time to upload some videos of my more recent recordings.

[Mr. Pocket]

Thanks all for participating in the thread. I've got some new ideas now for continuing my self-study of arpeggios and ear training. When I'm at the next stage I will unwillingly open another vague and controversial topic.

Cheers!

[SeanZ]

Jay,

Since you keep reminding everyone here of your many years of experience, I suspect Reg assumed you knew that Gb or F#m7b5 is the diatonic VII chord in the key of G. Or perhaps that's something you just haven't gotten around to in the 50 years?

[fumblefingers]

Now, the type of arpeggio studies (hate that word "drill") that I am familiar with are those of Sor and Carcassi. Or Villa-Lobos.

Cant speak for Villa-Lobos but those arpeggio/broken chord etudes from Carcassi and Sor are largely (1) triadic (with the exception of the V7), (2) open string and (3) played with over-ringing. Are they not?

The last two parts of that may work fine for finger-style jazz on a nylon string, but plectrum jazzers play larger harmonies and emulate horns (i.e. play "horn lines").

So, 7th chord harmonies at minimum, with lots of use of tensions, typically fretted notes as opposed to open string, and no over-ringing.

so why not look into Wes, Coltrane, Chet Baker, Dexter Gordon, etc., and how they used arpeggios?

[Jonah]

I'm puzzled by notation that in some fashion should have a reasonable key signature, and I don't care for the style of not writing in a specific key signature.

don't be a snob... really... to care about music is to read music not notation.

The type of run in that exercise is detrimental in my view to my classical as well as jazz style playing because it is unnatural. The last thing I want to do is to ruin a fluid and cultivated technique with a "drill" that forces my hands into unnatural position.

'natural position' is very individual quality... today it's unnaturatl, tomorrow it's so natural you do not notice it...


Anyway it looks like you did not get the purpose of this excersize... you sat down and read it and you say you're done.. but the idea is not about reading but about getting fluency in 'speach'

I am not sure to speak for Reg... but from my pov it does not even mean taht you end up playing this fingering...

My idea that after all you play anything anywhere anyhow... you should go through patterns to be realeased from any pattern...

Again it's not about reading - it's about realtion: you know chord or harmonic context and you immidiately in real time playing get into all the possible options to choose... that's the skill to develope

[targuit]

You more or less understood what I said Jonah. That exercise in my opinion is useless and forces the hands into unnatural positional runs. Why should I "fix" what is not broken? Ruining my hand in the process? Thanks but no thanks.

Sean - I understand music theory quite well almost 100% of the time. Reg about 50% of the time. Why he did or did not put a putative "exercise" in Gb I have no idea. I don't often see music written enharmonically as Gb but I don't care - I can still read it. And I don't like music written without a key signature because it is annoying unless in the key of C or Am. And given what you said about the VIIm7b5 chord, the key signature should have been the key of G perhaps?

But your sarcasm, while kind of cute, is unwarranted.

Fumblefingers - You are correct in so far as the value of classical arpeggio exercises and studies. Villa Lobos manages to create exercises that not only are musical but of great technical value. This "drill" stuff in m7b5 is not on both counts in my opinion. Btw, my favorite Villa Lobos studies are nos. 5 and 7. Try Reg's thing and then play no. 7. Tell me which is more musical and better technically.

[jazzguy100]

forget key signatures, forget reading, you should know this stuff like nothing. If someone says play diatonic arpeggios for C# mixolydian in 1st inversion moving in cycle of 4ths then you should be able to do it and that's an easy one. If you can't then you've got no time to waste.

[targuit]

Tell you what, Jazzguy - you devote your life to playing this and tell me how it goes. I prefer actually to play music.

As far as your little moniker at the end, why don't you put up a link to your music rather than your philosophy.

[targuit]

Nice job. You got a bit lost towards the end and the groove could use some work but it's fine.

What is now yesterday afternoon I recorded at a one take pass on Body and Soul. Two tracks, one guitar plus vocal, the second guitar. Yamaha classical. I'm trying to record some relatively short recordings of this type to put up on YT. Unfortunately, I'm also busy as heck copying medical records and dealing with college application and financial stuff for my son. So they get the priority but once the college stuff is done, I will try to get the recording up on YT.

Btw, I am not lecturing anyone - just expressing my opinion. Unlike some I am not afraid to express disagreement in a polite way. Something you might look into.

[jazzguy100]

Nice job. You got a bit lost towards the end and the groove could use some work but it's fine.

What is now yesterday afternoon I recorded at a one take pass on Body and Soul. Two tracks, one guitar plus vocal, the second guitar. Yamaha classical. I'm trying to record some relatively short recordings of this type to put up on YT. Unfortunately, I'm also busy as heck copying medical records and dealing with college application and financial stuff for my son. So they get the priority but once the college stuff is done, I will try to get the recording up on YT.

Btw, I am not lecturing anyone - just expressing my opinion. Unlike some I am not afraid to express disagreement in a polite way. Something you might look into.

Well now I've heard your playing, I think you should do more practicing than talking. It's alright if you want to puff your chest out and give your opinion as long as you can back it up.

[Reg]

Thanks Smokinguit.... that was my control note.... like using Gb-7b5. At least someone can read.

[targuit]

Jazzguy - After listening to your version of Stella, I was rather polite in your regards. Unfortunately, you seem to lack good grace and manners. So I'll tell it to you straight. Your "Stella" was weak, pal. Timing off, rambling disorganized solo with little inventiveness and lacking cohesion. And that is being polite.

So if I were you, I would be less inclined to be rude.

[jazzguy100]

see I don't need to be told where I need work I can figure that out for myself. I know I've gotta a lot of time stuff to work on and it's taking me years. thats how long it takes. And I aint trying to be rude. I call it like I see it.

[boatheelmusic]

This discussion is really regrettable - we're all here to work, develop and share.

I'd vote for the moderator to kill this thread before more damage is done.

[grahambop]

This discussion is really regrettable - we're all here to work, develop and share.

I'd vote for the moderator to kill this thread before more damage is done.

I don't see why we should hand a victory to one person who dislikes what everyone else wants to discuss!