One way to hold a guitar pick

[pkirk]

But here's the thing, Jeff, Jimmy DOES have a picking system. He teaches it. The rules are few and simple: when going to a lower string (such as from A to E), use an upstroke; when going to a higher string (such as from E to A) use a downstroke; when playing on a single string, use alternate picking.


http://www.amazon.com/Picking-Privat...art+of+picking

This is what economy picking is, at least as I've always heard the term used. The drum rudiment exercises mentioned upthread are picking exercises that exactly capture this approach.

Incidentally, Tony Purrone, who is a blazingly fast jazz guitarist, told me he practices everything using alternating picking, but forgets that all when he's actually playing".

[mr. beaumont]

But here's the thing, Jeff, Jimmy DOES have a picking system. He teaches it. The rules are few and simple: when going to a lower string (such as from A to E), use an upstroke; when going to a higher string (such as from E to A) use a downstroke; when playing on a single string, use alternate picking.


http://www.amazon.com/Picking-Privat...art+of+picking

Ok. But is he using that here? He surely isn't thinking about it. Does it matter if he breaks from it in the moment?

I think Jimmy does what he does and he teaches what he teaches. I think that's the same for a lot of cats, and that's okay. But you can't get stuck on method as law. Methods are created to get you to a certain place.

[fumblefingers]

He mentioned that it took him 6 months to convert and that it was painful. If these recordings were made prior to that period then he was using alternate, according to him.

[MarkRhodes]

Ok. But is he using that here? He surely isn't thinking about it. Does it matter if he breaks from it in the moment?

I think Jimmy does what he does and he teaches what he teaches. I think that's the same for a lot of cats, and that's okay. But you can't get stuck on method as law. Methods are created to get you to a certain place.

Yes, I think it is. No, he wouldn't be thinking about it, but that's because it is second-nature to him now. It wasn't when he started, either. (He cautions students who have played 5-10 years that the change will take time and may be more work than they're willing to do. He didn't start out playing that way. He found it hard to play bebop heads and lines (to tempo) using strict alternate picking.

I think what he teaches is what he plays. Obviously, he's on the mountaintop and he starts beginners in the foothills, but he insists that he's using the same foundation in his playing that he is teaching them. It really is old school: five major scale fingerings, and when you start doing improvisations for him, you're not allowed to use any outside notes. Then you get one, say Ab in the key of C, and that's it. I find it frustrating at times, no question about it, but I've seen enough videos of him playing to know that when he improvises, he's doing the very things he teaches.

[fumblefingers]

Yea I can alternate pick fast, but I'll usually grace or sweep, depending on the feel.

Here's just a simple Bbmaj7 to Bb-7 pattern that I can probable pick at 200 or anything similar. It becomes pretty latin or straight feeling with out sweeping to relax the attacks to help swing.

I'm busy most of the day... had late gig last night... but I'll get the new thread up tonight,(west coast time).

I'll post examples of how I approach string skips etc... all very straight down the middle. We can get into better material later... after the basic starting reference is developed etc... ECJ... your already a fairly advanced played... you might get bored... but I'll keep a few burnin applications that you'll be able to run with.

Read in 6th position...etc

would someone be so kind as to load a few videos of this exercise at 160, 180, 200 please? I mean where we can see your hands. It doesn't have to be Reg or it could be. That would be beneficial to see.

[Pocket Player]

I think the foundations!! will be great for Everyone that want to take part ! for the more advanced guys ! im sure there be other things to get ya going as well if you've already done this work. we all agree on the other stuff one must practice, to be a complete player. But for those of of that have bad technique in our playing. This will make short work of it.... i hope everyone will post where there at... with these exersizes... once Regs make's his new post,and set up the material to work on.We can all move fwd together....at lest bring us beginner and inter. players up to par. with a few of these basic's. picking,arp's,rhythm,and reading. and the foundation level. i think with the picking !!! it isn't about monster shred speed.... as to make sure there is complete finger independence and proper habits moving fwd.... thou if you want those speeds this is a way to work to them . but the habbit formed by going back to 50-60 bmp and learning to the sub divisions, with clean technique !!! has change me, i know! in a short amount of time. and i would love to be able to put my arps, and rhythm's into this type of structure moving fwd... even reading music... at this point id rather spend the next 4 years doing it right , then fumble around, with to much information !!! and the many bunny trails i find my self distracted with. then see where im at lol

p.s i'm happy with where i'm at now. But i really do see the value, of this way of learning....its not exciting !!! but the pay off is huge... and all you guys that have done it already , know what i'm talking about... and now have serious skillz, and play at the skill levels we all dream about because ,of this work... and the ability to build upon these skillz. cause your hands are free. to start being able to listen to what might actually want to come out of those fingers. Its going to be interesting to see the results !!! as the group moves fwd, vs the people that just watch. and those that stick with the practice... and the group...i have no doubt.. will be the guys were all talking about in a few years. and asking how...... they did it... the video's of where people were , and are will be shocking. especially if Reg also teaches the arp, and rhythm routines. Priceless !!! again Thanksks Reg for passing the skillz fwd...im sure there's a few of us ready to work are butts off for you,and the time your taking to work with us. so appreciated.

[mr. beaumont]

would someone be so kind as to load a few videos of this exercise at 160, 180, 200 please? I mean where we can see your hands. It doesn't have to be Reg or it could be. That would be beneficial to see.

16ths at 200? Day-umm!

[fumblefingers]

16ths at 200? Day-umm!

that's what i understood Reg to say.

i think it would be cool to get a freeze frame of what that looks like with a known written "score".

[ecj]

Watching your clip, appart from shifting positions instead of streching and all already mentioned, I've noticed you play wwith Benson picking grip. Somehoww it does not seem very natural for you,
I mean that is impression I got from a clip. Actually, at two moments, when you stop playing and just before you start,
while moving hand away and while approaching the strings, there is one moment where your hand looks much more relaxed
and in much more natural position. It is just a little bit lesss bent in the wrist, so to say. If you really care for Benson picking,
maybe that is the point to look at.

Also, to me, the most natural of your movement appeared towards the end of the clip, where you say : "... there must be some motion I'm doing wrong ...", at that time you make a motion which looks exactly right. I think that moment shows what would be the best way for you to pick.

Hope you didn't mind this "analysis".

Not at all, man. I don't disagree. I've never been 100% comfortable with any kind of picking, but I switched to Benson picking and it helped me progress by leaps and bounds. I should do a video and show how ridiculously bad my picking is in standard position.

I'm not a natural picker, but I've tweaked and worked on it enough to be passable.

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=MarkRhodes;548168]

But here's the thing, Jeff, Jimmy DOES have a picking system. He teaches it. The rules are few and simple: when going to a lower string (such as from A to E), use an upstroke; when going to a higher string (such as from E to A) use a downstroke; when playing on a single string, use alternate picking.

This has to be taught? I guess he's breaking it down the the extreme basics?

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=mr. beaumont;548189]Ok. But is he using that here? He surely isn't thinking about it. Does it matter if he breaks from it in the moment?

I think Jimmy does what he does and he teaches what he teaches. I think that's the same for a lot of cats, and that's okay. But you can't get stuck on method as law. Methods are created to get you to a certain place.

Yep! Any good teacher will show a foundation from which to build upon. Then, they'll show how to build upon that foundation. It's obvious that Reg is using this exact same approach . . and he's carefully pointing out exactly what I highlighted in your last sentence above.

I've seen Bruno play live quite a few times. He's awesome. Semms like he can do what ever he wants to do, when ever he wants to do it, without ever thinking about how he's holding the pick or what picking method he's using. Total *auto-pilot*.

[fumblefingers]

heck yeah, it has to be taught to alternate pickers like me.

in his picking book he goes beyond that simple rule for lots of lines and phrases. probably for exceptions to the rule in some cases, but i don't remember. but it's still the basic rule of thumb.

[fumblefingers]

would someone be so kind as to load a few videos of this exercise at 160, 180, 200 please? I mean where we can see your hands. It doesn't have to be Reg or it could be. That would be beneficial to see.

i tried it tonight and i can get it to 132 in a couple of days.

i can hear it at 160 and 180 in my head, but can't really envision myself playing that MFer at 180+ without some serious time put in.

i know we have some burners on this site. somebody pleeeeease upload a video.

[ecj]

I need to post a vid of the second example tonight. I can alt pick it cleanly with good feel up to about the same level, 220, 230. After that my picking gets all scrambled up and my feel sucks.

Using rest-stroke picking patterns like a gypsy, I can get it up around 250 with better feel.

[Reg]

Hey fumblefingers... I don't think I could tremolo 16th notes at 200, with out a little practice I don't think I could play any faster than 160, maybe after I'm warmed up 180, with practice, I don't really practice. But I would be able to play my typical BS at the tempo, not just the lick. Really that's like playing at 340+ right, no one rips off steady 16ths at those tempos. I just tried playing 16th at 200...way too much like work. That's past burnin tempos

If your able to play at 132, that's really like playing a tune at 260+... that's burnin. That's probable the tempo Bruno was playin Stitt's tune, and that felt like it was gettin up there.

I think it's a good thing to have those sessions where you push your limits and hang at tempos that are really above your playing skills... just to begin to develop the feel. And sometimes just pushing a lick a little will help bring your technique up a few levels of performance. When I make next Vid for my technique thread, I'll play lick faster than I should.

So most tunes are in 2 right, try playin a tune at half note 132, after you've played that arpeggio lick at 132, any differences.

[MarkRhodes]

i agree it's a good idea to present realistic goals for each excercise. I would be curious what others think about it.

Three finger excercise from 120 to 160
On a four finger excercise, from 144 to 200

if you can play near the top of these tempos, I think you have pretty good technique.

Just to be clear, are you talking 8th notes or 16ths?

I like the basic three-finger exercise, by the way. I'm doing it daily now. [To clarify for anyone who may have missed or forgotten Vintage's description earlier: we're playing three notes per string but the rhythm is in groups of four (sixteenth notes) or two (eighth notes) E: 567 A: 567 D: 567. And so on. When you reach the high E string: 56. Then B: 765 G: 765 and so on.] I'm doing this with economy picking: D U D D U D D U...

[Reg]

Hey ejc I believe fumble is thinking in 16th notes, or maybe I'm wrong. 200 + is off the charts.

[Reg]

Mark... isn't there an extra note or attack in there

567.... 3 attacks
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
56 ......2
____________
5x3 = 15 +2 = 17

[Reg]

The only reason I'm bring up... when you practice anything it develops internal Time... Personally I believe your technique practice should have time, that also develops time, even to the point of creating grooves.

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=Patrick2;548411]

This has to be taught? I guess he's breaking it down the the extreme basics?

If you start out as a strict alternate picker, then yes, this takes time to learn. It's changing a habit and that takes time. Picking changes are especially challenging because they effect everything you play. Consider: you may work on sight reading for a half-hour a day, then fingerpicking, then drop 2 voicings, and that won't interfere with your practice of other things--warm up exercises, etudes, arps, lines, heads, what have you--but when you change your picking, it applies to everything you play with a pick---heads, etudes, lines, licks, scales, arpeggios, transcribed solos, and your own improvisations.

Jimmy doesn't require anyone to learn this way of picking. But he does say if you do want to learn it, it will take months and you shouldn't take on much of anything else. Many people who have been strict alternate pickers for years never make the changes. (Some remain alternate pickers with a few economy licks 'n' tricks stirred in.)

Picking is a habit, and for most adults, it is a habit that has been reinforced for years, perhaps decades. Changing such a habit takes time and discipline. Not everyone has the time (or the discipline). Some may have both but decide they value other things more. That's fine. But those who want to learn to do this have some work ahead of them.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark... isn't there an extra note or attack in there

567.... 3 attacks
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
56 ......2
____________
5x3 = 15 +2 = 17

My understanding is that this is played in sixteenths, not triplets, so it is four groups of four; the 17th note is the first note of the descent. (When I play this, I play 76 on the low E and pause a beat, then play 5 on the next one, repeating the exercise.)

Vintage will doubtless clear this up for us.

[Reg]

Hey Mark... sorry to ask so much BS... so when your playing the 3 note pattern back down... do you continue the DUD attack pattern or do you use UDU... as in the Bruno picking method.

[Vladan]

... can't really envision myself playing that MFer at 180+ without some serious time put in.

I can envision my self doing that just as I can envision myself being the King of Rome, with the same probability of success.

[Reg]

Hey Mark... I found vintagelove's post... play three attacks from low E string to B string, one attack on high E string and back down... on middle note of 3 attack pattern...
567..low E string
567..A
567
567
567
5....highE

65...HighE
765..B
765
etc...

[Vladan]

I understood Vintagelove's exercise like this:

567.... 3 attacks
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
56 ......2
567.... 3 (or 765, whatever...)
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
567.....3
____________
10x3+2 = 32 = 2x16