One way to hold a guitar pick

[Reg]

Yea... that's the point of the exercise... create a solid basic down stroke alternate picking reference. There are 24 patterns,

1234...2341...3412...4123
1342...2413...3241...4312
1423...2134...3241...4312

4321...3214...2143...1432
4213...3142...2314...1243
4132...3421...2314...1243

...and when you apply the patterns to 4 strings...

1 x x x x x
x 2 x x x x
x x 3 x x x
x x x 4 x x
etc...

Anyway it's very basic and all organized with straight alternate picking... but again that's what it's about, developing a very strong default fingering and picking instinct to start from.

And once you develop the basic reference, when you start creating different patterns etc... they'll fall into place because you'll have solid instincts, which most guitarist don't.

This is not a musical exercise... strictly technique.

The same approach is applied to scales arpeggios, chords etc... start with the straight stuff and create solid references.

I'm a very straight and simple player.... but I choose to play that way. I can cross over and play any complex rhythmic, melodic or harmonic concept or application etc... because I have a very solid base to play from. I perform in the real world all the time... I agree these exercises or this approach won't prepare you to play musical etc... But this type of approach prepares you to be able to develop skills at a level of performance that will give you a chance to be able to be musical.

Like I always say you can memorize and perform or develop skills of performance... they both work. I believe the latter works much better.

[Pocket Player]

Vintagelove i have sooo much i love to ask you about pick and slurring, as that's where im at now . as well as the other things you've mentioned. but will leave it for a private convo my friend. and let Reg's have the floor on this one. But im still working throu the 4 finger permutations. and still have a lot of work to do i do work my 3 finger perm's as well. And Cant wait to get to some proper arp. practice going...with the same foundtion , when should we be looking for the start of the jedi training ? lol.... and the new thread. again looking really fwd to this.... as i see everyone is......and posting progress for accountability.

[ecj]

...and when you apply the patterns to 4 strings...

1 x x x x x
x 2 x x x x
x x 3 x x x
x x x 4 x x
etc...

Anyway it's very basic and all organized with straight alternate picking... but again that's what it's about, developing a very strong default fingering and picking instinct to start from.

The thing I'm still struggling with is alt-picking arpeggios across strings comfortably enough to do it at fast tempos (250+). Do you find that you're actually using those kinds of techniques while soloing on fast tempos? Can you rip back and forth over string groups fast enough to nail those kinds of patterns at fast tempos? What was your ceiling tempo-wise that you worked up to with these techniques?

For example, it's no problem for me to play most of the 1234 patterns on a single string at 160 or 170 with 16th notes. I can't do the 4-string crossing things above 120 or 125.

[MarkRhodes]

And it's probably a good idea to *stick* the thread.

Good idea, Franklin. I'll see to that.

[Reg]

Yea I can alternate pick fast, but I'll usually grace or sweep, depending on the feel.

Here's just a simple Bbmaj7 to Bb-7 pattern that I can probable pick at 200 or anything similar. It becomes pretty latin or straight feeling with out sweeping to relax the attacks to help swing.

I'm busy most of the day... had late gig last night... but I'll get the new thread up tonight,(west coast time).

I'll post examples of how I approach string skips etc... all very straight down the middle. We can get into better material later... after the basic starting reference is developed etc... ECJ... your already a fairly advanced played... you might get bored... but I'll keep a few burnin applications that you'll be able to run with.

Read in 6th position...etc

[vintagelove]

The thing I'm still struggling with is alt-picking arpeggios across strings comfortably enough to do it at fast tempos (250+). Do you find that you're actually using those kinds of techniques while soloing on fast tempos? Can you rip back and forth over string groups fast enough to nail those kinds of patterns at fast tempos? What was your ceiling tempo-wise that you worked up to with these techniques?

For example, it's no problem for me to play most of the 1234 patterns on a single string at 160 or 170 with 16th notes. I can't do the 4-string crossing things above 120 or 125.

Assuming you are playing an even number of notes on each string, you need to feel the "big 1" (in other words) the first beat of every group. Once you feel that big 1, you need to use that big 1 to drop to the next string..... Personally I usually warn against angling the wrist to change strings, rather the whole picking mechanism should move.

i would triple check that you are playing an even amount of notes on each string, from your description it sounds like your running into an odd number of notes resulting in outside picking. Good luck!!!

[Reg]

Here's a tune I notated quickly for a popish gig a while ago... lots of string skips and fast. Try and play the head, 5th and six position... pentatonics and triads... lots of skips and not consistent notes on strings... check out
cherry 2000 vid Jessie van Ruller, I'm just trying to see what your having difficulty with... don't work to hard on it... see where you have the problems...

[ecj]

Assuming you are playing an even number of notes on each string, you need to feel the "big 1" (in other words) the first beat of every group. Once you feel that big 1, you need to use that big 1 to drop to the next string..... Personally I usually warn against angling the wrist to change strings, rather the whole picking mechanism should move.

i would triple check that you are playing an even amount of notes on each string, from your description it sounds like your running into an odd number of notes resulting in outside picking. Good luck!!!

I'm specifically talking about patterns that require one-note-per-string moves, like arpeggios. Interval leaps have become my kryptonite.

Reg - thanks for pushing examples. Let me give those a shot later, and I'll upload a quick vid of my struggles.

[vintagelove]

I'm specifically talking about patterns that require one-note-per-string moves, like arpeggios. Interval leaps have become my kryptonite.

Reg - thanks for pushing examples. Let me give those a shot later, and I'll upload a quick vid of my struggles.

I would put some practice in on three string arpeggios sweeps. Also the three finger excercise a while back will really help if you do it with economy picking. Dud dud dud etc.. Remember that sweeping motion should be one motion, one pick stroke.

good luck!!!


ps if your string skipping it gets a little more complicated and personal, in other words what works for me might not wor for you. Try alternate, two downstrokes, or hybrid picking.

[pushkar000]

If I can butt in after 8 pages, 6 of which I didn't read, I also want to +1 the two proposed Reg threads. Part of my practice time these days has become opening Reg523 on youtube and just trying to learn whatever he plays.

[ecj]

Yea I can alternate pick fast, but I'll usually grace or sweep, depending on the feel.

Here's just a simple Bbmaj7 to Bb-7 pattern that I can probable pick at 200 or anything similar. It becomes pretty latin or straight feeling with out sweeping to relax the attacks to help swing.

I'm busy most of the day... had late gig last night... but I'll get the new thread up tonight,(west coast time).

I'll post examples of how I approach string skips etc... all very straight down the middle. We can get into better material later... after the basic starting reference is developed etc... ECJ... your already a fairly advanced played... you might get bored... but I'll keep a few burnin applications that you'll be able to run with.

Read in 6th position...etc

Here's a quick vid of me playing the pattern with strict alt-picking at 16s with a metronome at 50, 75, 100, and 110. My picking breaks down at 110.

I'd be really curious to see how you handle this when tempos start heating up. The problem I'm running into with my playing now is that I have a ton of vocabulary that I developed based on advice from teachers to play arpeggios over chord patterns with alt picking. Once the tempos get up above 225ish, my whole bag falls apart, and I'm switching gears to just rely on my bebop scales, pentatonic stuff, etc.

I like alt-picking for the ease in reading and maintaining position, which is something you've talked about, but I'm not sure how you navigate something like this lick at a hot tempo (250+). I'm trying to figure out my "next steps" in developing technique, and am not 100% sure what that should be. Do I go all in on sweeping, or find some other workaround? I'm curious what you use technically to do get graces and sweeps

I was curious from seeing you navigate some pretty hot tempos how you handle things, and what you think a student's goal should be in attacking something like this pattern. It seems like I generally need to be able to hit something at 300 in the practice room before I'm confident using it on the bandstand when a sax player decides to count a tune off at some ungodly tempo. Don't know how I'd do that technically with this lick.

Thanks!

[vintagelove]

Here's a quick vid of me playing the pattern with strict alt-picking at 16s with a metronome at 50, 75, 100, and 110. My picking breaks down at 110.

I'd be really curious to see how you handle this when tempos start heating up. The problem I'm running into with my playing now is that I have a ton of vocabulary that I developed based on advice from teachers to play arpeggios over chord patterns with alt picking. Once the tempos get up above 225ish, my whole bag falls apart, and I'm switching gears to just rely on my bebop scales, pentatonic stuff, etc.

I like alt-picking for the ease in reading and maintaining position, which is something you've talked about, but I'm not sure how you navigate something like this lick at a hot tempo (250+). I'm trying to figure out my "next steps" in developing technique, and am not 100% sure what that should be. Do I go all in on sweeping, or find some other workaround? I'm curious what you use technically to do get graces and sweeps

I was curious from seeing you navigate some pretty hot tempos how you handle things, and what you think a student's goal should be in attacking something like this pattern. It seems like I generally need to be able to hit something at 300 in the practice room before I'm confident using it on the bandstand when a sax player decides to count a tune off at some ungodly tempo. Don't know how I'd do that technically with this lick.

Thanks!

You need to abandon that alternate picking arpeggios business asap. It's gonna do nothing but slow you down and eat up valuable practice time. Sweep pick the arpeggios and that line is 100x easier.



ps that's not to say you wasted your time learning to do that. It's actually great practice for your alternate picking. But there is a serious speed limit to that technique.

[Reg]

Hey Evan...

Cool, yea your problems... most want... but anyway a few things...
Your left hand has way to much movement, especially when you stretch. really need to have the hand almost in position all the time... so it doesn't get in your mental way for faster tempos, will also help with the accents. It's not so much that you need to always have this position... but when you first play something that you don't know, your default hand positions really need to be perfect. And then you can loosen up etc... look cool etc...

The pick thing. Personally I think your grip and attack are too tight, no flex. I believe you need a slight angle for each attack, like your leaning into the attack. And not tight, almost like there is a joint or flex point between the two opposite sides of the pick where your holding it. I hold the pick very near the strings, so that flex point is very close to the point of string contact...but I even over exaggerate the movement sometimes to help create sound and feel.

So the pick isn't an extension of your fingers, it is another moving part. Except when I'm sweeping or creating the articulations of a sweep... slurring the notes together.

I would think you could increase your tempo a lot by those simple changes. Do i need to make example, does that make any sense...

[ecj]

Hey Evan...

Cool, yea your problems... most want... but anyway a few things...
Your left hand has way to much movement, especially when you stretch. really need to have the hand almost in position all the time... so it doesn't get in your mental way for faster tempos, will also help with the accents. It's not so much that you need to always have this position... but when you first play something that you don't know, your default hand positions really need to be perfect. And then you can loosen up etc... look cool etc...

The pick thing. Personally I think your grip and attack are too tight, no flex. I believe you need a slight angle for each attack, like your leaning into the attack. And not tight, almost like there is a joint or flex point between the two opposite sides of the pick where your holding it. I hold the pick very near the strings, so that flex point is very close to the point of string contact...but I even over exaggerate the movement sometimes to help create sound and feel.

So the pick isn't an extension of your fingers, it is another moving part. Except when I'm sweeping or creating the articulations of a sweep... slurring the notes together.

I would think you could increase your tempo a lot by those simple changes. Do i need to make example, does that make any sense...

Thanks, Reg. I definitely see what you're saying about the left hand watching the vid. I have a hard time with the first finger stretch reaching back, so I'll have to work on that.

I think I see what you're saying about leaning into it with the pick. So you're actually tilting the pick towards the floor for a downstroke and upwards towards your head for an upstroke? If you can try to show it on a vid, I think everyone else would benefit as well.

Will work on these pieces and try re-recording in a bit. I've also learned the second example and will try to do a vid tomorrow night. I can definitely tell from trying to play that at 250 that somewhere up above 200 my upstrokes start to fall apart in trying to articulate the beginnings of those phrases which may be a big part of my problem.

[Patrick2]

Agreed! Especially on the one pattern that Reg posted;

1XXXXX
X2XXXX
XX3XXX
XXX4XX

Why would anyone not sweep that? Unless, of course just for the sake of exercising the strictest of alternate picking technique.

[Reg]

Which is what these are, right, strict picking exercises. And with reference to playing in general...Articulations...pretty different feel between picking and sweeping.

I'm not just being stupid etc... sweeps are a very different sound and not everything is sweepable.

And the point of this discussion is not about sweeping... right. I'm not trying to say this is the only way to play these notes. Being able to pick the pattern is part of a process, the one fingering pattern is part of 24 patterns that help develop picking skills.

Most of the other patterns are not sweepable like the 1 2 3 4, the next 2 of that set, 1 3 4 2 and 1 4 2 3

1 x x x x x
x x 3 x x x
x x x 4 x x
x 2 x x x x

1 x x x x x
x x x 4 x x
x 2 x x x x
x x 3 x x x

These are not meant to be musical... strict picking technique which can be applied to playing during performance or practice of performance etc...

[Reg]

Thanks, Reg. I definitely see what you're saying about the left hand watching the vid. I have a hard time with the first finger stretch reaching back, so I'll have to work on that.

I think I see what you're saying about leaning into it with the pick. So you're actually tilting the pick towards the floor for a downstroke and upwards towards your head for an upstroke? If you can try to show it on a vid, I think everyone else would benefit as well.

Will work on these pieces and try re-recording in a bit. I've also learned the second example and will try to do a vid tomorrow night. I can definitely tell from trying to play that at 250 that somewhere up above 200 my upstrokes start to fall apart in trying to articulate the beginnings of those phrases which may be a big part of my problem.

Hey Evan, cool, yea the left hand position... is really just more of developing a basic default hand position when playing. What ever you do will become your standard default etc... more of general hand positions etc..

And yes that's what I mean, I tilt towards the attack. I don't think of the movement as a rotation, the tilt will reflect whatever your playing. Could be rotational, but could be straight, depending on note pattern. Yea I'll make a vid.

You look like you have more than enough technique to get up to 300, it's just a different motion for the moment.

I watched the Vid again... looks like even when your playing non skip etc... you still have pretty tight and fixed pick position. I'm not saying that's wrong, I use that position also, but generally to create a very straight time feel.

Try practicing single note tremolos... feel the difference between the attacks. When your tight and there's no tilt or lean there is more of a reaction from the attack. With a slight lean or tilt, it's almost like you have a shock absorber... your creating a more relaxed, smoother picking motion result.

And I think I remember Vintage mentioning the 1 thing, 1....2 3 4, 1....2 3 4 etc... I think that's a good reference for phrasing. Depending on whether your thinking of 8ths or 16s... If you think of 16's as I notated, go from quarter to half note feel... Maj7th going to Min 7th, those are the targets... sorry about all the BS... just trying to give as much info about how I approach as possible...

[ecj]

Hey Evan, cool, yea the left hand position... is really just more of developing a basic default hand position when playing. What ever you do will become your standard default etc... more of general hand positions etc..

And yes that's what I mean, I tilt towards the attack. I don't think of the movement as a rotation, the tilt will reflect whatever your playing. Could be rotational, but could be straight, depending on note pattern. Yea I'll make a vid.

You look like you have more than enough technique to get up to 300, it's just a different motion for the moment.

I watched the Vid again... looks like even when your playing non skip etc... you still have pretty tight and fixed pick position. I'm not saying that's wrong, I use that position also, but generally to create a very straight time feel.

Try practicing single note tremolos... feel the difference between the attacks. When your tight and there's no tilt or lean there is more of a reaction from the attack. With a slight lean or tilt, it's almost like you have a shock absorber... your creating a more relaxed, smoother picking motion result.

And I think I remember Vintage mentioning the 1 thing, 1....2 3 4, 1....2 3 4 etc... I think that's a good reference for phrasing. Depending on whether your thinking of 8ths or 16s... If you think of 16's as I notated, go from quarter to half note feel... Maj7th going to Min 7th, those are the targets... sorry about all the BS... just trying to give as much info about how I approach as possible...

Thanks, Reg! Really appreciate you being so free with info.

I see what you're saying about picking now. Two things: tilting towards the attack, but then also holding the pick loosely enough that the pick itself can move in reaction to the string. I'll work on that.

I like what you say about having the flexibility to do different things.

You look like you have more than enough technique to get up to 300, it's just a different motion for the moment.

Time to get to work!

[Zip09]

You need to abandon that alternate picking arpeggios business asap. It's gonna do nothing but slow you down and eat up valuable practice time. Sweep pick the arpeggios and that line is 100x easier.

ps that's not to say you wasted your time learning to do that. It's actually great practice for your alternate picking. But there is a serious speed limit to that technique.

I would have said pretty much the same thing, had I not watched this clip several weeks ago:

It can be done, and not only with speed, but clarity as well. I'm not a big fan of practicing things that won't in some practical way apply to your playing post-practice, so had I not seen this Morse explanation I likely wouldn't even give the exercise a go. Alternate across 3+ strings always seemed gimmicky to me in it's unlikely/inconsistent goals, but this changes things.

[vintagelove]

I would have said pretty much the same thing, had I not watched this clip several weeks ago:

It can be done, and not only with speed, but clarity as well. I'm not a big fan of practicing things that won't in some practical way apply to your playing post-practice, so had I not seen this Morse explanation I likely wouldn't even give the exercise a go. Alternate across 3+ strings always seemed gimmicky to me in it's unlikely/inconsistent goals, but this changes things.

First off, he always has great videos.

i don't think anyone said it couldn't be done. I even said it's great practice. However there is a serious speed limit to that technique, even for mr morse (for instance in the video he was doing a five string arp using alt picking, in sweep land, that tempo would be slow) On top of that how much time does it take to get the technique to that level? Isn't there a thousand other more important things to practice?

second for the gentleman who posted the video (good for putting yourself out there), he apparently has trouble (really just no experience) with sweeping. Imo he would do himself a huge favor by working that technique up so it can be used when needed. Think about it, he was already at 120, the goal was 150. Not that far off. So his technique on that particular concept is like 80% there..... His sweeping ability is at 0%. Which should he spend his time working on? he even demonstrated a typical ii v line that he struggled with. That lick would be so easy with a sweep.

my point is, I would rather be 60% at both techniques, than have zero ability on one and great on the other.

[Vladan]

As long as each of us stick to own issue, disregarding any other, it's good, because we will all always be right.
I think this Morse clip is proving my idea about all the talk about inside and outside, odd and even ... Is more less BS. This guy that is analyzing Morse's technique, his talk is also BS. And to add, on my pathetic low and slow level I think I tend to do similar to Morse. I'm never caught BTW the strings. I do occasionally involuntary pluck one or another. I'm not clean player by far, but on the other hand I don't really care, so I don't practice. I did couple decades ago, though.
No doubt, sweeping and economy provide additional speed, but that's, common in regard to any sort of alternate, be it inside, outside ...
It is not that you sweep in order to avoid outside, or avoid alternate pick odd number of notes per string. Point is, you can not sweep/ econony from the outside or with even number of notes and pick every single one, so if you want to be super fast, yiu have to sweep, or economy, but thrre you sacrifice music and addapt lines to fit the technique. IMO.

[destinytot]

I would have said pretty much the same thing, had I not watched this clip several weeks ago:

It can be done, and not only with speed, but clarity as well. I'm not a big fan of practicing things that won't in some practical way apply to your playing post-practice, so had I not seen this Morse explanation I likely wouldn't even give the exercise a go. Alternate across 3+ strings always seemed gimmicky to me in it's unlikely/inconsistent goals, but this changes things.

Great post, man. Thank you!

[pushkar000]

I would have said pretty much the same thing, had I not watched this clip several weeks ago:

It can be done, and not only with speed, but clarity as well. I'm not a big fan of practicing things that won't in some practical way apply to your playing post-practice, so had I not seen this Morse explanation I likely wouldn't even give the exercise a go. Alternate across 3+ strings always seemed gimmicky to me in it's unlikely/inconsistent goals, but this changes things.

Steve's right hand tendons are practically bursting. Other benefits aside, there is no way that kind of picking is healthy.
Wonderful video though(haven't seen all of it yet) and great channel in general. Thanks for the link.

[Zip09]

First off, he always has great videos.

i don't think anyone said it couldn't be done. I even said it's great practice. However there is a serious speed limit to that technique, even for mr morse (for instance in the video he was doing a five string arp using alt picking, in sweep land, that tempo would be slow) On top of that how much time does it take to get the technique to that level? Isn't there a thousand other more important things to practice?

I haven't read it here, necessarily, but have read elsewhere at roughly the tempos that Evan mentions above where players state it either as a waste of time, or flat-out impossible to alternate arpeggio lines on the guitar. A big topic of discussion years ago on a different forum was whether prog rock guitarist John Petrucci was alternating or sweeping certain arpeggio lines in this one DT song. On and off, it's reoccurred as a topic, and DiMeola has stated on multiple occasions that those arpeggio shapes have to be solved in different ways, as strict u-d-u/d-u-d alternating would be "impossible". Grady's single biggest accomplishment I think is showing why not all down and upstrokes are created equal. I somehow doubt Al Di was the only guy out there for decades who thought this, and that Morse refined it to the degree that he did, and Grady recently dissected it as well as he did, in and of itself is noteworthy, IMO.

Yeah, in sweep land it may not be all that fast, but like so much else...context-- I really like the sound of the notes 'popping' out with alternate that quickly, and honestly I've watched/listened to plenty of players in the past simply butcher sweeping- rush a phrase slightly too much, decreased note definition, ect. Even after alot of hours put in. Any 'technique' has it's own barriers that can, or cannot be overcome-- you won't be burning Gambale speeds with what he's doing, but it's undeniable that it offers it's own unique 'effect'. The way Grady explains it, this is not something that should take years of practice to get down-- your picking hand needs to move across the plane of strings in a specific motion of pickslanting and almost arcing across certain strings with a large spring spread to avoid any hicup but still keep tempo.

Really, I think it's just another technique you could feasibly add if you wanted to now that it's been put under the microscope. If it takes away 30 min a day for the next 2-3 months from your sweep picking regime, than that is just the natural cost of doing business learning something new like that. Is it still kinda novelty? I'd say so. But then again sweeping was thought that way once, before it began to develop and develop...

[ecj]

I'm not afraid to admit that I have almost zero sweep chops. Zero. Need to work on that.

Reg posted a bunch of stuff about alt-picking across 3+ string groups, so I'm asking about what he thinks a good goal is. If I'm shooting for 150, I'm shooting for 150.

And, yeah, I can do that ii-V lick pretty fast if I sweep on some of it and do pull-offs and whatnot. Just trying to plug the holes in my playing. The weakest part of my playing is my alt-picking, by far. So many mountains to climb!