Thinking while playing guitar

[Jehu]

My mom taught me to pee standing up.

There are a number of conclusions one could draw from this...

[Jonzo]

The only conclusion you can draw for certain is that I know how to pee standing up. Anything else would explain more about you than me.

Henry--I was using you as a hypothetical expert, and me as a hypothetical amateur. I was not taking issue with anything you said.

Kojo27--I don't think I read what you think I read, but thanks.

[Reg]

So I'm reading some notifications and messages on my ipad.... yada yada.

Hey Kojo/ loren.... sorry I didn't really get most of your post.... was it basically anyone can say whatever they want and as far as the context and references ... the same thing, maybe skip all the BS... we disagree on some things, who cares.

I'm OK with that. I'm OK with all the BS... it just music. (or even worse, talking about music)

I'll try and post more opinionated BS... sorry have been and am still...really busy. I do miss hanging with guitarist.


Reg

[Kojo27]

The only conclusion you can draw for certain is that I know how to pee standing up. Anything else would explain more about you than me.

One cannot conclude that you "know how to pee standing up"; you may have forgotten. It seems logical to conclude that you once knew how to pee standing up.

[Kojo27]

No one has said that people who are not experts should not speak. However, before I take advice from someone on how to do something, I prefer to know that they actually know how to do the thing they are telling me how to do. If someone tries to tell me how to swim, I prefer that they know more than the theory. I would like to know that they actually know how to swim. And if they don't actually know how to swim, but only know the theory as to how to swim, then I would like to know that they have some way of demonstrating to me that their theory will allow me to learn how to swim.

In other words, if you are asking me to believe you and do what you say, shouldn't you provide me with some basis for doing that?

YES!!!!

But if you're talking to me, that is *not* what I said, and that isn't what Reg was talking about.

[Jonzo]

One cannot conclude that you "know how to pee standing up"; you may have forgotten. It seems logical to conclude that you once knew how to pee standing up.

You really can't even conclude that "I" exist. (But I can!)

[henryrobinett]

Hi Henry,

Love your music, too, btw. : ) Very, very musical stuff.

Speaking of all the responses, I gotta say some strike me as downright strange... I do wonder whether some read what I said, and if so, might they have failed to comprehend it. So I cut away some unnecessary stuff -- I had to leave just after writing that and didn't have a chance to edit it properly. Also, I wrote too much. Big fault of mine, right there.

I should have asked ONE question at a time. This one first:

Why do people you see as having "strong opinions" about jazz, or improv, or whatever -- have to "audition?"

Even people who don't play an instrument can have an opinion (they probably don't very often, but there's no law against it!) And that some non-pro-level players here happen to be forceful writers - and because they express ideas about music better than players who PLAY better -- this is no fair reason to try to shut them up, and I really do think (having been here 2 years) that there's an attitude with just a few that is, "Don't take the attention away from us unless you play as well as we do." It's childish. I didn't see the post in this thread where Reg finally told the guy (who seemed frazzled at that point) not to bother with proving himself; Reg told him his posts were interesting by themselves (and they are!) Maybe a sense of reason took hold?

Apologies or any confusion that was my fault - thanks, Henry.

Loren

Thank you for listening to my music and saying something nice. That means a lot!

Well Loren, then I have to ask to you actually read my response? I read the above two, three times and I'd probably write what I wrote already. I can only write from my own experience and point of view. I can't suppose what someone else might say or do or how they might respond. It seems like a rhetorical question. You are really making a statement and couching it in the form if a question, it seems to me.

I don't understand about auditioning. You have the right to say whatever you want. But if you're going to criticize, it'd be nice to see you post something, especially if you're going to criticize a fellow traveller here. Not mandatory, but it'd be a good thing. As I said people who have the courage to do so might just be leaving a lot out there. Many who don't have no idea.

Now I'm only speaking generally. I wasn't part of the earlier conversation. You have an opinion. You have a right to that opinion, always. But feelings get miffed in music, whether it's our playing that's being criticized or one of your heros. There's no intention to shut anyone up, not on my part. You can like McLaughlin or not. You can prefer Shawn Lane or Ed Bickert. It's just when someone starts slamming other people, trashing them. That's just where I - read that Henry Robinett - has an issue.

This, similar to my response to your earlier query, is still my response. This is why and how I responded to your "question" that didn't really seem like a true question. My previous response is still germane I feel. But it seems you wanted a specific response that was different. Well you were asking Reg anyway.

I'd suggest reading what has been said and see if there's anything there. Don't look for preconceived answers or things you expect are right and correct. There's no right answer. Only opinions from those of various levels of experience. And that probably means they're all correct.

[henryrobinett]

The only conclusion you can draw for certain is that I know how to pee standing up. Anything else would explain more about you than me.

Henry--I was using you as a hypothetical expert, and me as a hypothetical amateur. I was not taking issue with anything you said.

Kojo27--I don't think I read what you think I read, but thanks.

Understood!!

[targuit]

Hey, ciao everyone!

A "thank you" to Loren for the kind words regarding my posts, which are perhaps too verbose (just one of my faults too numerous to mention).

The original post was about thinking while playing, one of my strong interests over the fifty plus years I have played music 'seriously'. And I've asked that question to a few eminent guitarists over the years, plus I like to read the opinions of great musicians in this regard like Bill Evans. Finally, as a physician, I know something about the neurology involved and read the scientifically oriented research on the process of improvisation. All of which is to say that I have thought about the subject a lot, though that does not make my opinion any more or less viable than anyone else's.

As for posting music to back up one's 'street credentials', so to speak, I'm all for it, and I've promised it a few times without delivering lately. I haven't even added to my YT channel lately ( I actually deleted a couple of videos over copyright concerns, founded or unfounded). Apart from likely ADHD and problems with task completion and my lack of good video equipment, the main issues I face right now are time opportunity and psychological in a sense.

This week I face a "disciplinary board" that threatens to extort a fine of several thousand dollars from me and possibly to limit my medical license. What sin did I commit? Malpractice? Medical financial fraud of the government? Illegal prescription of narcotics? Sleep with a patient? No - none of the above, and I 've never been even mentioned in a malpractice suit nor had any misdemeanors or felonies - nothing more than an occasional speeding ticket. No, my sin was talking "truth to power"- government abhors the truth. I'll leave it at that, but suffice it to say that the threat of losing my ability to provide income for my family in a lousy economy has been a distraction from posting videos to back up my musical credentials. In any case with the uncertainty facing primary care physicians in private practice with Obamacare (ACA) coming January 1, 2014 and further government mandates like adoption of ICD-10 in October 2014....well, I may be looking at an early retirement that I definitely cannot afford. Lucky for me the job market is so great right now for someone my age! (sarcasm font).

So other than practice medicine, my skill set is limited to playing music, though job openings for slightly greying classical-country rock-jazz guitarists who can sing are probably not too abundant currently. Maybe I could teach. I can transcribe well. I think I can write fairly well. (Little story - I had a patient whose Mom was a 'writer'. When I asked her what kind of novels she wrote, she told me "erotic romances". I'll have to give her a call for some publishing contacts.)

I've had a lot on my very distracted mind, as you can understand. Can I improvise? Oh, yeah. Maybe if I lose the ability to provide income for my family as a reprimand from the government for telling the truth I'll have lots of time on my hands when I'm not looking for those elusive jobs out there. Anyone know of any openings in an Eagles cover band?

Btw, just yesterday (Thursday) morning, I e-mailed Reg to make sure he was alright, since I noted his absence for a while here, and I miss his playing and ruminations. Like Reg said, talk is just talk. And music is just music. But trust me, telling the truth does not always set you free, especially if you're talking to someone in government....

Jay

[ColinO]

YES!!!!

But if you're talking to me, that is *not* what I said, and that isn't what Reg was talking about.

I think you misrepresented what Reg said by omitting a part of the comment you initially cited and failed to post a number of his subsequent comments in which he specifically says that there was no need for targuit to post any playing and that his comments were always welcome and enjoyable.

But that's cool. If I misunderstood your main point then I apologize. I thought you were suggesting that people around here should not consider a person's ability to improvise when assessing their recommendations on the best approach to improvisation. I gather that you are just concerned that people's opinions are not welcome unless they are a talented player. I think that if you read the threads in detail, you will find that is not the case and that in this forum most people's opinions are welcome and worthy of debate whether they can play well or not.

It's not always easy to express one's thoughts on internet forums with precision and that is why you often find arguments about things people actually agree on.

[princeplanet]

Sometimes advice from someone "learning" can be more insightful or even "useful" than advice from a master. The master has forgotten the struggles with learning and, even if he/she teaches, sometimes forms a dogmatic, even intolerant approach to teaching others.

The student who is on the right path (the trick is knowing this, I suppose) and can express the vagaries and triumphs of his/her study may, for example, might offer a helpful suggestion about how to hold a pick, or how to visualise a MM scale by altering the 3rd in a maj scale, or other kinds of issues many experienced players no longer have an interest in.

The student never says: "play like me, I've got it sussed", they'd just offer something more along the lines of: "hey, maybe try learning like me, I feel I'm getting results".

But the reality is that most of us here take a little from here and there, and we make our own way. By the book, by ear, from the master, from the novice..... Speaking for myself, I sometimes wonder if it's better to just try something stupid and f*ck up, as opposed to spending a lot of time reading, talking, worrying about how not to f*ck up.

[henryrobinett]

Exactly princeplanet. We've all got to find our own way. Teachers can point directions. But no matter how many teachers you have, ultimately you teach yourself. AND the sooner you get away -- try the "stupid" things, make them all your own, the sooner you'll be on your way. The problem is to not try and reinvent the wheel when it's been invented and improved upon for hundreds of years already. But when you GET it, let go and make your OWN music.

[Kojo27]

I think you misrepresented what Reg said by omitting a part of the comment you initially cited and failed to post a number of [Reg's] subsequent comments in which he specifically says that there was no need for targuit to post any playing and that his comments were always welcome and enjoyable.

-my emphasis. kj

Yes, you're right. I mention this in response to Henry above. I don't know WHY on earth I didn't see that post, and for some reason, how I missed the whole PAGE of posts where targuit was posting his music and people were saying, "Okay, okay..." But alas I'm human and screw up. I'd delete the whole big stinking post if it weren't already quoted in other responses, but that wouldn't be ethical, because others quoted it, seems to me.

I thought you were suggesting that people around here should not consider a person's ability to improvise when assessing their recommendations on the best approach to improvisation.

Obviously a person who offers helpful (allegedly helpful?) information on how to handle some aspect of improvisation should be able to do it himself, or should absolutely be learning it himself -- I don't see why he'd need to be an expert, however. Remember the instructional videos by "Greats" like Yngwie Malmsteen? I doubt that anyone learned anything from Yngwie's "product." Players rushed to spend their money for it, though. Ever seen the video by John Abercrombie? He plays amazingly well on the video, but as a teacher he's practically worthless. If somebody learned anything from that video, I'd like to know what it was. Ditto for most "Star" videos.

Yet: go to YouTube and get FREE lessons by people like Justin Sandercoe, and I guarantee you'll learn if you just try, because Sandercoe is a talented teacher.

If I were a beginner, and couldn't read books and learn that way, I'd rather have Sandercoe explain it than try to make sense of the ramblings of "pros" who simply aren't good teachers.

Of course it's wonderful to find a pro who is also a good teacher - Jody Fisher, for example. Randy Vincent

I gather that you are just concerned that people's opinions are not welcome unless they are a talented player.

Yep. I'm talking about *opinions* about the thing that is called improvisation. Where does it come from? What is it? What is it NOT? Is jazz improv a higher art than blues, or rock, or bluegrass, or fusion improv? (I'm not asking y'all for an answer - don't answer that! LOL) Those sorts of *opinions* about improvisation - or any other topic of opinion we discuss in here.

My gripe isn't just about improvisation; no, it extends to posts about music theory, topics on getting properly started, how to hold a guitar, how to practice, on and on, many topics. A professional player can often times not explain his way out of a paper bag (and there's a forum that has a famous example) -- he knows what he's doing, on a visceral, "gut" level; but can he explain things to an intermediate or beginning player? Often not. And it might be that a less-advanced player is far better (far, far better) at explaining certain things about practicing, learning, even playing - than the advanced player. I think this is true, sometimes anyway, because the beginner-intermediate player remembers learning, and therefore HOW he learned. For the pro, so much time has passed, and so much sublimation has happened, that he either can't remember how he learned a thing -- or it's too much second-nature to him now.

I think that if you read the threads in detail, you will find that is not the case and that in this forum most people's opinions are welcome and worthy of debate whether they can play well or not.

I agree. Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I think the raised eyebrows are reserved for people who write and explain things exceptionally well, and most of all, who get lots of attention. I could be wrong.

[Kojo27]

Sometimes advice from someone "learning" can be more insightful or even "useful" than advice from a master. The master has forgotten the struggles with learning and, even if he/she teaches, sometimes forms a dogmatic, even intolerant approach to teaching others.

Yes! You posted this while I was writing the post a couple of notches down - and I wrote the same thing! Quite true, I think.

The student who is on the right path (the trick is knowing this, I suppose) and can express the vagaries and triumphs of his/her study may, for example, might offer a helpful suggestion about how to hold a pick, or how to visualise a MM scale by altering the 3rd in a maj scale, or other kinds of issues many experienced players no longer have an interest in.

You're saying it much better than I did. : )

The student never says: "play like me, I've got it sussed", they'd just offer something more along the lines of: "hey, maybe try learning like me, I feel I'm getting results".

I'm so glad you showed up.

Everybody just overlook my posts and read PP's.

KJ

[pkirk]

Sometimes advice from someone "learning" can be more insightful or even "useful" than advice from a master. The master has forgotten the struggles with learning and, even if he/she teaches, sometimes forms a dogmatic, even intolerant approach to teaching others.

Lots of "masters" are unable to communicate or relate to beginners. What makes a good teacher is that in addition to being good at the skill, s/he also has experience and clarity to quickly identify every (or most) ways in which a beginner can go wrong and know the efficient ways to set them back on the right track, as well as know how to prepare the student for the next step. The brain has this weird way of abstracting and synthesizing things so that the deeper you get into something, the *simpler* it becomes (hence, to get back to the thread, this is the reason why you think less and less the better you become at improvising.) This simplicity may be hard to explain or convince to someone with less experience, and some "masters" can't or don't bother, on the other hand, having a sense of this simplicity gives a perspective that can be useful when guiding those further back on the journey.

But in my experience (in a different discipline, but the process is similar) beginners, even if they understand one particular thing correctly, do not see the big picture, they can't: they don't know enough. Beginners, if they are passionate and like talking about something may make what they consider good arguments about what is right and wrong, which may be OK from a narrow perspective but besides the point in the large.

As to whether one need to audition to state an opinion or make an argument, obviously not. But the audition clarifies the context of the opinion or argument in the way that the words themselves do not. And, on an internet forum, since anybody can pretend to be an expert, it helps filter out the noise.

[Kojo27]

Thank you for listening to my music and saying something nice. That means a lot!

Well Loren, then I have to ask to you actually read my response?

Yep, Henry - I read everything that everybody wrote. I didn't expect some things that happened just after writing the OP, and man, I just can't respond to everything! Lots of responses, not much time. I appreciate everyone's taking time to speak up, though. : )

It seems like a rhetorical question. You are really making a statement and couching it in the form if a question, it seems to me.

YES!!! Exactly. I have a bad, bad problem of doing this very thing. And I wasn't even questioning Reg - not personally, the guy who is Reg -- it's just that he brought it up, and I was taking the opportunity to get this off my chest, but the fact that Reg happened to say something was coincidental, really. It could have been anybody - and I didn't/don't expect anybody to actually answer those questions. Just think about them. Rhetorical - yes.

I don't understand about auditioning. You have the right to say whatever you want. But if you're going to criticize, it'd be nice to see you post something, especially if you're going to criticize a fellow traveller here. Not mandatory, but it'd be a good thing. As I said people who have the courage to do so might just be leaving a lot out there. Many who don't have no idea.

Hmm.... Not sure I follow. Are you saying post responses to this thread, or post music - or what? Also, if you mean music, whose music did I criticize? Not saying I didn't - I just don't recall. // About posting music: I've posted a bit of stuff in another forum or two, but for personal reasons, I probably ain't gonna post anything, EVER, in this one -- and that's no comment toward any of you guys. Some old business, and they know who they are and what they did. Nuff said.

It's just when someone starts slamming other people, trashing them. That's just where I - read that Henry Robinett - has an issue.

I definitely wanted to address this - are you saying I was "trashing" Reg? Who? Slamming who? How? I spoke against asking people to "show their stuff" if they're going to talk, in posts, about this or that musical topic. I hope I wasn't "slamming" anybody.

kj

[ecj]

There's a big difference between discussing a topic and speaking from authority about a topic. If we're talking about improvisation together, and we share thoughts and opinions as students of the craft, or share info that we've heard from great players and teachers, I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

People get annoyed when posters come on here and make incredibly broad, declarative statements about the "right" way to do things, or dismiss other approaches, or talk shit on great players. If you're going to participate in that kind of behavior, you better have the playing examples available to back up what you're pronouncing from throne.

For example, we've had a million discussions about Benson picking on here:

1) I've shared a lot of the info I've gleaned from reading online, and have tried to spread around things that took me a long time to pick up digging through interviews, etc. I don't consider myself an expert or even very good at picking, so I've tried not to make any statements beyond that, other than sharing things that have worked for me.

2) JC Stylles is an example of a guy who came on here, who speaks very plainly, and posted some pretty incredible clips demonstrating that he is a top notch player in that style. I'll listen to whatever he has to say about picking chops, because he has them in spades and has clearly spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to teach other people to do it.

3) RichB, as he always does, popped into that thread to talk down Benson picking and take a really strong stance on how he thinks guitarists should learn how to pick. RichB has no playing examples online, to my knowledge, and very few people on this forum have ever heard him play.

If you don't think there's a difference between (1), (2), and (3)...I think you're crazy. Anyone on this forum is crazy not to take JC's, or Reg's words about picking over mine or Rich's, since neither of us have demonstrated the ability to pick at a very high level. Why would you think that we know how to do it? Maybe we do, or maybe we don't, but if you don't demonstrate it, there's no point in participating in the discussion from a position of authority.

The forum is still a great resource to ask questions, share info you've heard, and learn from great players. It's not a great place to come on and cop a huge ego and attitude.

[henryrobinett]

Ok Loren. I'm not saying YOU criticized anything. I'm explaining my position on this vague generalized question/statement of yours. My position: you, as in anybody, are welcome to opine anything about jazz. Anything. You can criticize who you want. But I will get a little miffed if you do so, without at the very least, being willing to ALSO put your butt on the hot seat. Be willing to share your playing ( not you specifically but generally). Talk is cheap and people talk an awful lot about music, and on the Internet they like to pretend.

This is my opinion from my own experiences.

[Kojo27]

Ok Loren. I'm not saying YOU criticized anything. I'm explaining my position on this vague generalized question/statement of yours. My position: you, as in anybody, are welcome to opine anything about jazz. Anything. You can criticize who you want. But I will get a little miffed if you do so, without at the very least, being willing to ALSO put your butt on the hot seat. Be willing to share your playing ( not you specifically but generally). Talk is cheap and people talk an awful lot about music, and on the Internet they like to pretend.

This is my opinion from my own experiences.

On an Internet guitar forum, I think I agree -- if you're talking RichB-type stuff, I agree (I once posted a video of a young South American jazz player, played a $600 Washburn, but was SO full of emotion and soul -- and Rich said, "That sucks in every way!") LOL! In many situations, I think it's perfectly okay for even a non-musician to give his opinion of a performance... that's always been going on. Critics - good and bad - do this, for example.

On a forum like this, though - probably not. Unless somebody posts in the Showcase thread. "Look at me!" thread. There, one may be asking for it. People are going to judge.

If it's an attempt to show, or teach - and someone slings criticism - yeah, he should show that he can do better, I suppose.

I dont' recall EVER criticizing anyone's playing as bad... if I did, I don't remember it. I'm pretty sure I've always said only good things about people's stuff. I've criticized stuff like ways of defining certain things - but that's different, seems to me. That's not criticizing a person or his music.



Just a BTW: In one of the study groups I did ask the wrong person whether he *might* have made a slight boo-boo. And helpful criticism, I thought, was the point. He didn't like my observation at all. He responded...err...not happily. Now, a year or more later, I see that _someone_ deleted my post, deleted his 'miffed' response, as well as my response to his response, and his response to that response - the entire ugly thing vanished! (Wish I could delete other's posts! But, that's "old boy" for ya.

"All pigs are equal - but some are more equal than others." Orwell

[Patrick2]

Butch Harmon has commented on the golf swing of Tiger Woods, Phil (My Man Lefty) Mickelson and countless others . . and has instructed them at a fee that I don't even want to think about. Yet . . . NO ONE . . . has ever seen Butch Harmon swing a golf club. I'm just sayin', man . . . . .

[targuit]

Perhaps I err, but it seems to me that Loren was merely trying to assert that opinions are difficult to dismiss out of hand unless they are clearly unreasonable or totally unfounded. As for speaking with 'authority', if you are Joe Pass or Herb Ellis, you spoke with authority. If you are not in that rank of upper echelon, you are just another musician in many respects. Certainly there are those who play better or worse than others here. But that does not automatically make your opinion or theories about improvisation any more valid. True that if I needed surgery, I would value the opinion of a good surgeon above that of a medical student, because of his or her experience and skill. But that would be my choice to value that opinion, not a universal proof that the surgeon is correct and the medical student wrong. The greatest surgeons were all once medical students. And then again, unlike surgery and medicine, music is much more subjective.

[Jonzo]

Don't get miffed Henry!

I'm going to start demanding people post their college degrees. I don't trust anyone with less than a Master's degree in education.

[Kojo27]

Butch Harmon has commented on the golf swing of Tiger Woods, Phil (My Man Lefty) Mickelson and countless others . . and has instructed them at a fee that I don't even want to think about. Yet . . . NO ONE . . . has ever seen Butch Harmon swing a golf club. I'm just sayin', man . . . . .

Yo, Patrick!


The list of people who could teach things they couldn't do is long, and it proves (to my satisfaction) that ability is less important that the gift of teaching - which might be little more than realizing very clearly that the fact that YOU understand what your words mean - this means *nuttin* about whether the student understands it. Every bad teacher I've seen (jeez, I've seen a lot) have the same basic problem: they are explaining ("teaching") the thing to themselves. There's a disconnect in the process, somewhere, that makes them think, "I'm following my explanation; therefore, if you aren't, it's' because you're not listening, or you're just dumb."

A good teacher begins with the assumption that the student know little if anything. I really do NOT believe that teaching (of any subject) can be taught. You either have it, or you don't. I'll claim a bit of authority here, as education was a major of mine in college. In college, the people who, as freshmen, couldn't explain things, couldn't explain things as seniors either. Sad but true.

And regarding music, I'd far rather have a good teacher who understands what he/she's teaching, than a 1982 Berklee grad who hasn't ever really taught, and who has trouble expressing what he does, but who plays great! I'd rather HEAR the latter - but why would I pay him for lessons? Sometimes a bad teacher can leave a student feeling hopeless. "I can't understand; I must suck, so I quit." Happens all the time, because hotshot guitar players think they're great teachers, and unsuspecting students think so, too.

Patrick: remember Angelo Dundee! What a boxer he was, aye? Ooo! Killer Dundee! LOL!

[ColinO]

Butch Harmon has commented on the golf swing of Tiger Woods, Phil (My Man Lefty) Mickelson and countless others . . and has instructed them at a fee that I don't even want to think about. Yet . . . NO ONE . . . has ever seen Butch Harmon swing a golf club. I'm just sayin', man . . . . .

Maybe not but he has a track record of teaching people to do it well. Again, no one has suggested that you need to be a great player to espouse whatever method you want. But unless you have some evidence that it actually works, then others should not be criticized for doubting its validity.

[Kojo27]

Perhaps I err, but it seems to me that Loren was merely trying to assert that opinions are difficult to dismiss out of hand unless they are clearly unreasonable or totally unfounded.

Bless ye Doc. That's a good way of saying it - yes.

As for speaking with 'authority', if you are Joe Pass or Herb Ellis, you spoke with authority. If you are not in that rank of upper echelon, you are just another musician in many respects. Certainly there are those who play better or worse than others here. But that does not automatically make your opinion or theories about improvisation any more valid. True that if I needed surgery, I would value the opinion of a good surgeon above that of a medical student, because of his or her experience and skill. But that would be my choice to value that opinion, not a universal proof that the surgeon is correct and the medical student wrong.

Double bless ye - This is *exactly* how to put it. : ) Thank you. They'll be "chasing you away" soon, I'm afraid. (Inside joke.)