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Do you rely on your knowledge of the note positions all the time when you play? Or just when you practice. I think Andreas Oberg said something like he doesn't memorize scale pattern he just play the notes. How well do most jazz guitar players have to know the notes on the fretboard. Thanks for all reply
Last edited by Electra11; 07-24-2012 at 09:47 AM.
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07-24-2012 08:44 AM
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You need to know it like the back of your hand. It's not really that hard but it takes time. If you spend 5 minutes a day going through one note at a time and finding those noted everywhere on the neck, you will have it mastered in no time. You will be glad you did.
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All thinking is for practice...but a jazz player should know the fretboard inside out...if not academically than certainly intuitively.
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It's really an impossible question to answer, in my opinion. It depends too much on too many different factors.
There is no limit to how well an individual could know the fretboard. And different people have different somewhat innate levels of musicality that may allow them to play well despite not knowing that much about what they are doing.
There are also different approaches to 'knowing' the fretboard...you could know 50 licks up and down the neck in different keys -with good time - and probably wind up giving a better performance than somebody who has makes fretboard jpegs for a living or something.
How well do we have to know the fretboard? Well enough. If your playing doesn't sound the way you want it to, it's probably because of a few factors...it might be because you don't know your way around the neck well enough...it might be because your technique is sloppy...you might have bad time...you might not know the language well enough...fretboard knowledge is one factor, and it has no limit. We put pieces of a puzzle together in hopes of getting the sound we're seeking...
Colin is right that you need to know it "well" but the question is "how well?" What might be "like the back of my hand" for one individual might be considered "barely scratching the surface" to another. I consider myself to know the fretboard well most days, then sometimes on a gig something happens (a tough, unfamiliar tune at a quick tempo, for example) that makes me feel like I have to pull out a GPS.
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I have been working on learning a large number of chords, and it is glaring how important knowing the note names is to the process. So much so that I would recommend putting aside learning chords until you really know your notes. They are the foundation. If you do not instantly know both of the (typical) enharmonic equivalents for all points on the fretboard that you intend to play on, you will be dramatically slowed in learning chords.
One thing I find useful is to think through the note names, and tones (1,3,5,7, etc.) for each finger position when I am learning new chord voicings. This helps you start to see notes in relation to each other. Generally, the more ways you can practice the same information, the better your long-term results will be.Last edited by Jonzo; 07-24-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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This sums it up for me.. I think Andreas Oberg said something like he doesn't memorize scale pattern he just play the notes.
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+1.
Originally Posted by Jonzo
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Thats interesting ...........people play different ways
I don't know or think the notes by name that much at all
but then again I don't think for Amin 7 , A C E G
I think of the shapes on the board , for Amin 7
I know (well I'm getting better at it) the sounds of the various shapes
on the board
Someone called Green Dolphin Street in Eb the other day ..... I know it in C
and I didn't think of the notes and transpose them ... can't do that fast enough
I thought of the Roman numeral analysis shape of the tune
then started on Eb instead of C
People function differently
I was talking to the Bass player before the gig and she said she doesn't
think of the changes at all ! and if she knows a tune it doesn't matter
to her what key its in !! wow
She say she just hears the bassline (root motion) ,
she says she doesn't dig soloing because she just hears the bassline
and feel she can't play a good melody
She walks great tho ! ..........
I guess we all function differently
the real buzz for me comes from hearing an idea in real time on the gig
and being able to play that ...... yeah thats coooool !
for you guys is knowing the note names all over the bourd helpfull
in being able to do that ?
I might have to put some work in !
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That amazes me. I'm that way about some songs I wrote, and maybe a few tunes I've played so many times I don't think about the changes anymore, but I don't know that I could play them in other keys without batting an eye. Originally Posted by pingu
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I know ! .... how cool would that be ?
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Must Know Notes
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What I mean is ..... if I hear an ideathe real buzz for me comes from hearing an idea in real time on the gig
and being able to play that ...... yeah thats coooool !
for you guys is knowing the note names all over the board helpfull
in being able to do that ?
I hear it as tonic , min3rd, tonic or whatever .... I'm thinking functionally
Then I play that from the min 3rd shapes I know on the fretboard
I don't think C , Eb , C
Do you guys ?
Do you think it would be worth me working this up ?
(and in all keys obviously)
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In the beginning, learning guitar is really about learning the shapes/patterns/positions on the fretboard, and that's how everyone has to learn to see it. It seems like a lot more work than some other instruments, where it's more about learning to spell things out in all keys.
But I think what generally happens is the shapes and patterns become internalized to the point where you don't need to consider them much anymore. So eventually it just becomes that you can see the fretboard linearly like a keyboard...repeating octaves... and ultimately it's just that E is the third of C and the sixth of G, etc.
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That's more like horn players learn and they are the best soloists. If just wanting to play a little using the dots-on-a-grid will work. If you really want to be a Jazz musician then you're going to want to learn the notes and fretboard till they are embedded in your sub-conscious so you can just let go and play. Originally Posted by Electra11
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You need to know where the notes are on the fretboard very well. I don't think many people when they're playing an Am7 chord think "A C E G". But you better know where at least one of those notes are before you blindly slap your shape on the neck.
You may be right that people think differently, but my mind can't get around the thought of finding a scale or chord or arpeggio without knowing the names of the notes.
Are there really people who don't know the note names and can just hear a chord, not know what chord it is, what key center they're playing in or what note they're about to play is named and just know that that note on the third string seventh fret, whose name I don't know is going to sound good with that chord?
I've been playing(not jazz) for a long time and and incapable of that. If that's what it takes to play jazz, then I don't have the juice.
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But I think what generally happens is the shapes and patterns become internalized to the point where you don't need to consider them much anymore. So eventually it just becomes that you can see the fretboard linearly like a keyboard...repeating octaves... and ultimately it's just that E is the third of C and the sixth of G, etc.So I think I get it ...............If you really want to be a Jazz musician then you're going to want to learn the notes and fretboard till they are embedded in your sub-conscious so you can just let go and play.
When you're soloing , is this the process
hearing a thing
thinking/getting that it's C D Eb F G C Eb Etc
seeing/feeling those notes (as letter names) on the fretboard and playing them?
If so that's very interesting ..........
I just don't do that (at the moment) at all !
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I think for the fluent improvisor, the process is hearing a thing>playing a thing, and all the 'information': note names, scales, arpeggios, intervals, patterns, fingerings, etc have been drilled and internalised with long hours in the practice room. I doubt anyone's thinking every single note name as they go along on the bandstand, but if you stopped them at any time, they could tell you instantly the name of the note under their finger.
I remember being at a clinic with John Abercrombie, and he was being peppered with questions about this scale, that pattern, what fingering, etc. and his reply to all of it was "Just learn the neck as well as you possibly can" If there's nothing preventing you from learning the note names, why not work gradually and consistently and do it?
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Very. Maybe someday we'll get there! At least you know it can happen! Originally Posted by pingu
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[quote=paulkogut;243953] I doubt anyone's thinking every single note name as they go along on the bandstand, but if you stopped them at any time, they could tell you instantly the name of the note under their finger./quote]
That's my sense. In terms of information processing, it would be a *disadvantage* to know every note while playing in the same way it would be a huge drag to be aware of every letter of every word you were saying (or typing). Not only would it get in the way, it would be maddening.
Still, we need to know the fretboard as well as we can. The names of the notes, enharmonic equivalents, chord shapes / patterns. (In working with Joe Elliott's "Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing" I'm learning to see "keys" on the fretboard. In one sense, I'd always known all the chords in a key could be played in a four-five fret range, but I didn't pay enough attention to this to really see it. Now I'm seeing it. It's a big advance for me.)
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No not saying that ..........Are there really people who don't know the note names and can just hear a chord, not know what chord it is, what key center they're playing in or what note they're about to play is named and just know that that note on the third string seventh fret, whose name I don't know is going to sound good with that chord?
Hey its not about that , u got the juice , we all got the juice .....I've been playing(not jazz) for a long time and and incapable of that. If that's what it takes to play jazz, then I don't have the juice.
I'm just interested in the different ways people squeeze it out
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Thinking is for practice and developing what gets call muscle memory or similar terminology. Then when your playing you're in the moment focusing on what going on the bandstand and reacting to it. Originally Posted by pingu
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Once you get to a certain level you may not necessarily focus as much on what note to play but focus on what note not to play, that can be fewer notes but you still have to know the fret board.
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Yeah you got me there Doc !
I'm always thinking and analysing stuff tooo much on the bandstand
I reckon its out of fear
I'm trying to protect myself from ugly stuff and clams etc
but hey , you're right
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As Miles there are no mistakes, just opportunities. Originally Posted by pingu
It's all about articulation.
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You need to know your fretboard as well as you know the way to your girlfriend's house.
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