How well do we have to know our fretboard

**gcb** · 07-26-2012, 06:11 PM

originally posted by Docbop

If you really want to be a Jazz musician then you're going to want to learn the
notes and fretboard till they are embedded in your sub-conscious so you can just
let go and play.

+1

**RyanM** · 07-26-2012, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by ESCC

Once you get to a certain level you may not necessarily focus as much on what note to play but focus on what note not to play, that can be fewer notes but you still have to know the fret board.

Lol I really like this!

**Billnc** · 07-26-2012, 11:56 PM

I think you could point to any note on the fretboard and I could quickly tell you the name of the note and it's relationship to any chord. I'm not the worlds greatest player, but it certainly helps my playing.

**docbop** · 07-27-2012, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by ESCC

Once you get to a certain level you may not necessarily focus as much on what note to play but focus on what note not to play, that can be fewer notes but you still have to know the fret board.

There are no wrong notes, just bad articulation. Any note can work when played with conviction and good rhythmic placement. As the great sax player Jerry Bergonzi says... melody trumps harmony.

**jtizzle** · 07-27-2012, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

It's really an impossible question to answer, in my opinion. It depends too much on too many different factors.

There is no limit to how well an individual could know the fretboard. And different people have different somewhat innate levels of musicality that may allow them to play well despite not knowing that much about what they are doing.

There are also different approaches to 'knowing' the fretboard...you could know 50 licks up and down the neck in different keys -with good time - and probably wind up giving a better performance than somebody who has makes fretboard jpegs for a living or something.

How well do we have to know the fretboard? Well enough. If your playing doesn't sound the way you want it to, it's probably because of a few factors...it might be because you don't know your way around the neck well enough...it might be because your technique is sloppy...you might have bad time...you might not know the language well enough...fretboard knowledge is one factor, and it has no limit. We put pieces of a puzzle together in hopes of getting the sound we're seeking...

Colin is right that you need to know it "well" but the question is "how well?" What might be "like the back of my hand" for one individual might be considered "barely scratching the surface" to another. I consider myself to know the fretboard well most days, then sometimes on a gig something happens (a tough, unfamiliar tune at a quick tempo, for example) that makes me feel like I have to pull out a GPS.

I think I'll disagree with you there.

I believe the reason piano, and not to mention organ players, are so great at what they do, is because they know their keyboard better than we know our fretboard. They have it easier, because it's all right in front of them, they just have to think scalewise to go up or down. We gotta put up with 6 strings with gaps apart. Of course, when you really get this, then it's easy to learn, but us as guitarists are guilty of having poor fretboard knowledge. I think it's a really easy question to answer, we just have to know it. Period.

While playing, we might not be thinking of every single note you're flying through, but you wan't to be able to target certain notes, or pass through really specific notes. You can sure hear these things, but you don't want to solely rely on your ear or on a position or grip for a phrase or chord, that'll just make you sound like you're running scales. It's a combination of hearing what you want, and knowing where it is.
Think of it as going to Grand Central on foot, you know it's on 42nd and park, but you need to find it. And depending where you're at, you gotta take certain streets or subways or buses to get there, and you gotta know which ones or which combinations will take you there.
So take that and now replace that with a G7, you wanna target chord tones, and you want to find your chromatic or diatonic ways to get to the chord tones. It's like having a mental GPS for NYC, except NYC is your guitar.

**DaveF** · 07-27-2012, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by Electra11

I think Andreas Oberg said something like he doesn't memorize scale pattern he just play the notes.

I really can't see this to be true, you can't think fast enough when playing a fast run for example. Ultimately it's just finger memory (ie a pattern) even for horn players. Like Jeff said there's no time in performance to think.

**DaveF** · 07-27-2012, 03:56 AM

Nevertheless you gotta know the fretboard inside out!

**jtizzle** · 07-27-2012, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by DaveF

I really can't see this to be true, you can't think fast enough when playing a fast run for example. Ultimately it's just finger memory (ie a pattern) even for horn players. Like Jeff said there's no time in performance to think.

That actually is true. Read my other post, it's pretty much what he's doing. It's not that he's thinking every single note in an extremely fast run, which he tends to do, but he knows what notes he wants to target and by what means he wants to get there, and he's able to do it.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-27-2012, 02:36 PM

And he DID think about how he was getting there at one time.

Bottom line, no shortcuts. Know the fretboard inside out, again, either academically (knowing the names of every note) or intuitively (knowing pitches and hwere they reside in different octaves)

If you're going to go intuitively, you better hope your ear is damn good.

No shortcuts.

**ECHOPLEX** · 07-27-2012, 02:57 PM

If your goal is to become the best player/musician that you can be,then why on earth would you not want to have total and complete knowledge of the fretboard.Imagine someone wanting to become a brain surgeon and asking if he really needed to learn all there was to learn about the brain before he was aLlowed to perform surgery.Ok ,i know, no one is going to die if we play a wrong note ,but you get the point.

**ColinO** · 07-27-2012, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by jtizzle

That actually is true. Read my other post, it's pretty much what he's doing. It's not that he's thinking every single note in an extremely fast run, which he tends to do, but he knows what notes he wants to target and by what means he wants to get there, and he's able to do it.

Right. Even at the simplest level - how would you know where to start your blistering patterned run if you don't know your fretboard very well? How would you know what notes to target or where they are? How would you know where to place your chord shape?

Then two beats later(if your lucky) you have to know where to start the pattern or place your next chord shape all over again.

Knowing the fretboard is one of the easiest things you can do when playing jazz so why not just suck it up and learn it as well as you can? - It couldn't hurt.

**JakeAcci** · 07-27-2012, 03:14 PM

Jtizzle, it seems like you've misunderstood my post to a dramatic degree.

You have to know the fretboard well. How well is well enough? It depends. "inside out" - that's different to different people. Some people might say "inside out" means knowing 6 positions for every mode and arpeggio. Others might consider that a starting point, rather than an end goal.

You have to know it well. The better you know it, probably the easier it will be to play.

You guys are talking about "knowing the fretboard" vs "not knowing the fretboard." The question was "how well do we have to know our fretboard?"

How well is enough? It depends. If you don't know it well enough to play what you're trying to play, you need to know it better. Guess what - that's probably true of everybody.

Attempting a more useful bit of text: If a guitarist has a practice routine, part of that practice routine should involve activities that increase his knowledge and awareness of the fretboard.

Again, if you don't know it well enough to play what you're trying to play - if you're getting lost or feel limited in what you can access - then you need to know it better. That's "how well."

Honestly this whole "you need to REALLY know it!" stuff is a little silly to me. There's no end point. You can always know the fretboard infinitely better. It's not a black or white thing.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-27-2012, 03:25 PM

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I always take "How well do I have to _____?" questions as "Can I get away with not knowing this?"

**JakeAcci** · 07-27-2012, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I always take "How well do I have to _____?" questions as "Can I get away with not knowing this?"

That's totally fair. The wording of the original post was not very descriptive at all and could have meant a variety of things.

Looking back, it looks like the original poster made one poorly worded post but has not come back to respond to the replies. Kind of lame. I find it really in poor taste when people do that. I like to try to be direct in these posts...if somebody asks a specific question, let's answer that question specifically and literally. (The question was "how well?") But then again, who cares about any of it if the original poster wasn't even going to stick around for the replies.

**ECHOPLEX** · 07-27-2012, 04:12 PM

you are not alone Mr Beaumont,my other favorite is how much should i practice.

**DaveF** · 07-30-2012, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by ColinO

Right. Even at the simplest level - how would you know where to start your blistering patterned run if you don't know your fretboard very well? How would you know what notes to target or where they are? How would you know where to place your chord shape?

Then two beats later(if your lucky) you have to know where to start the pattern or place your next chord shape all over again.

Knowing the fretboard is one of the easiest things you can do when playing jazz so why not just suck it up and learn it as well as you can? - It couldn't hurt.

That's true and that's why you need to know the fretboard. But make no mistake when Oberg plays a fast run he plays intricate lines with very specific embellishments carefully chosen and that's why he's not thinking of the notes at execution time, he's playing a lick! He thought of the notes when he was learning the lick and during performance only for where to apply it. Those who tweak licks at real-time have worked out how they can combine licks and patterns they've learnt beforehand to produce a great many different possible combinations. Discipline and freedom are not mutually exclusive. Here and there they might think of a note if they have time. But it all boils down to vocabulary and having the fretboard knowledge to apply your vocabulary in different keys and on different chords.

**guelda** · 07-30-2012, 05:25 AM

Hi all,

well as already stated all is important : knowing your notes on the fretboard, knowing some scales and arpeggios patterns or positions, etc. I think Andreas Oberg is a big joker when he says he doesn't memorize scale patterns, everyone does at first ! And he has plenty of licks in his playing, which are clearly memorized stuff.

But IMO this has the same goal : being able to play what you hear, and to rely on ear more than only on fingerings. I can't believe people are always thinking about the notes they are playing, their places in the current harmony of the song. We are not computers but artists ! Well, in a perfect world I guess

peace
Guelda

**Electra11** · 07-30-2012, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

That's totally fair. The wording of the original post was not very descriptive at all and could have meant a variety of things.

Looking back, it looks like the original poster made one poorly worded post but has not come back to respond to the replies. Kind of lame. I find it really in poor taste when people do that. I like to try to be direct in these posts...if somebody asks a specific question, let's answer that question specifically and literally. (The question was "how well?") But then again, who cares about any of it if the original poster wasn't even going to stick around for the replies.

I appreciate all replies and I apologize for not responding to the replies but I thought the question was not so poor wording or make people upset that much. I only want to know how other people learn.

**DaveF** · 07-30-2012, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Electra11

I appreciate all replies and I apologize for not responding to the replies but I thought the question was not so poor wording or make people upset that much. I only want to know how other people learn.

No harm done, I've learned a lot from reading the answers to others' questions on this forum. Now you know in Jazz you have to learn everything very well

**Garrett Smith** · 07-30-2012, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by RyanM

In the beginning, learning guitar is really about learning the shapes/patterns/positions on the fretboard, and that's how everyone has to learn to see it.

Everyone?

**S_R_S5** · 08-07-2012, 11:46 PM

You should always be trying to learn the fret board as well as possible. There are so many ways to improve your knowledge. If you do not know your fret board at all you will sound awful in concert.

**Badge** · 08-08-2012, 04:45 AM

It depends how you tick. Me, I need to understand things. Some people don't.

It's really worth making the effort to learn the fretboard (e.g. intervals or notes - whatever works for you). You not only improve your playing - you will realise the genius of whoever invented the guitar system!

To me, playing great guitar without knowing the fretboard is a little like singing a song perfectly in a different language without knowing the meaning of the words.