Question about improvisation

[AllanAllen]

This thread is painful. Y’all are debating with a toddler.

[AdroitMage]

In a superficial sort of way, but you haven’t actually said what those other elements are.

So the person arguing that flour isn’t the most important ingredient in bread because the dry ingredients are most important n might sound kind of silly, but they could at least tell you that the remaining ingredients are sugar, yeast, salt, etc. And they could probably tell you why each is important and what role they play in the process.

So …. what are the other elements of good phrasing, separate from rhythm, and why are they not more or less important than rhythm to the idea of phrasing?

Superficial??? Nah, not superficial at all.

First, yes, rhythm is an important part of phrasing. I already said that, but there are many other facets to good phrasing too that aren't necessarily part of the definition of rhythm.

Let me ask you this, you say flour is the most important ingredient in making bread, but if you leave out the wet ingredients is it still bread, can you still make good bread with only the dry ingredients?

According to Marriam Webster's Dictionary this is the definition of rhythm:

a: an ordered recurrent alternation of strong and weak elements in the flow of sound and silence in speech

b: a particular example or form of rhythm
iambic rhythm

2) a The aspect of music comprising all the elements (such as accent, meter, and tempo) that relate to forward movement

b: a characteristic rhythmic pattern

Based on that, maybe you can answer your own question now. Can you think of any elements in music/ in improvisation that are not included in the definition of rhythm? If so, you've answered your own question.

[pamosmusic]

Superficial??? Nah, not superficial at all.

First, yes, rhythm is an important part of phrasing. I already said that, but there are many other facets to good phrasing too that aren't necessarily part of the definition of rhythm.

Let me ask you this, you say flour is the most important ingredient in making bread, but if you leave out the wet ingredients is it still bread, can you still make good bread with only the dry ingredients?

According to Marriam Webster's Dictionary this is the definition of rhythm:

a: an ordered recurrent alternation of strong and weak elements in the flow of sound and silence in speech

b: a particular example or form of rhythm
iambic rhythm

2) a The aspect of music comprising all the elements (such as accent, meter, and tempo) that relate to forward movement

b: a characteristic rhythmic pattern

Based on that, maybe you can answer your own question now. Can you think of any elements in music/ in improvisation that are not included in the definition of rhythm? If so, you've answered your own question.

Can I think of any elements in music or improvisation that are not included in the definition? Why yes I can. But unfortunately that doesn’t answer my question because I was asking you to define *phrasing* and what elements you feel they includes other than rhythm.

Is it worth pointing out that you still haven’t done that?

[Strat-itis]

We're supposed to be a unit!

[AdroitMage]

Can I think of any elements in music or improvisation that are not included in the definition? Why yes I can. But unfortunately that doesn’t answer my question because I was asking you to define *phrasing* and what elements you feel they includes other than rhythm.

Is it worth pointing out that you still haven’t done that?

Okay, if, as you say, you can think of other elements of improvisation that aren't included in the definition of rhythm, then you do know elements of phrasing that aren't included in the definition of rhythm.

Honestly, I don't even know how to describe what good phrasing is in words. I've never really thought of it that way, because that doesn't help me play any better, but I can hear what it is when I listen to great players play. For me, it's more of a concept that I hear and have assimilated like the Borg, and now it's just ingrained in my soul wherever that musical inspiration thing comes from. Anyway, what I consider to be good phrasing that's what I play. I can name some things that are part of good phrasing, though, like note selection, emotion, and a sense of direction.

[pamosmusic]

Okay, if, as you say, you can think of other elements of improvisation that aren't included in the definition of rhythm, then you do know elements of phrasing that aren't included in the definition of rhythm.

Honestly, I don't even know how to describe what good phrasing is in words. I've never really thought of it that way, because that doesn't help me play any better, but I can hear what it is when I listen to great players play. For me, it's more of a concept that I hear and have assimilated like the Borg, and now it's just ingrained in my soul wherever that musical inspiration thing comes from. Anyway, what I consider to be good phrasing that's what I play. I can name some things that are part of good phrasing, though, like note selection, emotion, and a sense of direction.

So, to clarify, everyone is wrong about what is the most important aspect of improvisation. The most important aspect of improvisation is phrasing, a word that includes:

Rhythm, note selection, emotion, and sense of direction.

So what exactly would *not* be included in your definition of phrasing?

[AdroitMage]

So, to clarify, everyone is wrong about what is the most important aspect of improvisation. The most important aspect of improvisation is phrasing, a word that includes:

Rhythm, note selection, emotion, and sense of direction.

So what exactly would *not* be included in your definition of phrasing?

Look, you can have a different opinion about what is the most important element of improv if you want to, that's okay, and it doesn't make you a bad person for thinking something else is the most important thing in improv.

IMO, though, phrasing is the most important part of improv and that's what I'm going to always say because that's what I believe.

If you don't agree, then okay, we can have a civil discussion about it, and maybe you could change my opinion on that.

Unfortunately, some people around here don't seem to have the maturity for that. If you don't agree with them, they resort to immature personal attacks like a child.

And yes, rhythm is a HUGE part of good improv, the notes being in a good rhythm AND the spaces between the notes also being in a good rhythm. That is HUGE, so we can agree on that.

So yes, they're wrong, IN MY OPINION, however, if you have a different opinion we can discuss that in a civil manner. Ideally, that's what forums are about. Do you disagree with that?

[pamosmusic]

So yes, they're wrong, IN MY OPINION, however, if you have a different opinion we can discuss that in a civil manner. Ideally, that's what forums are about. Do you disagree with that?

No I don't disagree with that, but once again I'll note that you didn't answer the question.

What would not be included in your definition of phrasing, which includes rhythm, note selection, emotion, and sense of direction?

Unfortunately, some people around here don't seem to have the maturity for that. If you don't agree with them, they resort to immature personal attacks like a child.

Yes, I have noticed that. Who those people are, I'll leave folks to decide on their own.

[starjasmine]

There's an old joke about the most important part of the body that I won't repeat here, but any thread about "the single most important aspect of X" reminds me of it...

[AdroitMage]

No I don't disagree with that, but once again I'll note that you didn't answer the question.

What would not be included in your definition of phrasing, which includes rhythm, note selection, emotion, and sense of direction?



Yes, I have noticed that. Who those people are, I'll leave folks to decide on their own.

I did answer the question. I said that I don't have a set-in-stone verbal definition of phrasing and that, in my opinion, that doesn't matter. I like one phrase to flow logically to the next one like a language with musical notes instead of words. That's about it, and for my solos to tell a story with a beginning, climax, and a good resolution back to the tune, or many beginnings, climaxes, and resolutions back to a chord. That's about all I can say as far as a "definition" because that's how I think about it.

You seem to be looking for some concrete definition like "good phrasing is A, B, and C," but I don't have that for you because that's not how I think about phrasing. I think about it like a language, and I want my improv to make sense like a language, and to tell a beautiful story with musical notes. Ya know? For example: if someone talks fast all the timeand never shuts up, it's annoying, right? So I don't do that in my phrasing.

Now that's mine, as nebulous as it is, so what's your definition of good phrasing?

[AdroitMage]

I like ragman1's answer, mine is right along the sames lines.

The transcendentals, three things, not a single thing

Truth
Beauty,
Goodness

Interpret the musical versions of those as

Authenticity - due respect for the tradition / period of the tune
Allure - the shared subjective feeling of expressing it right
Appropriateness - knowing your audience, what they like

The first 3 you mentioned, that's quite a hip take on it.

[AdroitMage]

Rhythm

That piece is a huge part of it.

[AdroitMage]

Herb Ellis said "sing what you play, play what you sing".He also said "play quiet and you'll always get work".

That's a great idea because it forces you to pause and take a breath periodically which makes your improv sound more natural, like language. I heard Metheny say that's what he does, and every time he has to take a breath he stops playing. He attributes that to his influence by horn players. Horn players have to stop playing periodically to take a breath.

[AdroitMage]

Speaking of threes: Artist (painter) Tony Alaine claimed the three necessary ingredients for any art to be effective are "communication, revelation, and celebration"

For real I can vibe with those in terms of improv.

[AdroitMage]

I've watched teachers work at getting reading/rote players--horns as well as guitar--to "get off the page," and aside from breaching the fear barrier (probably the first big challenge), what I've noticed is that they start simple--often one or two notes--and that they emphasize placement, which I think is another way of talking about the handling of time and pulse and rhythm. A sax teacher I observed suggested not playing a lot of notes--he pointed out that well-schooled players of their instrument could rip out fast scales, but those are not necessarily as musically interesting as a couple of well-placed single notes. Space is as important as fill.

I think if an otherwise competent player asked me for advice (poor schnook*), I might suggest "C Jam Blues" as a starting point, since it has a definite groove but nothing to speak of in the melody department, and two or three notes that fit the groove but mess with placement and duration might be interesting.

* In my musical circles, I'm notorious for not taking solos. I do, however, mess around with everything available when I sing, where improvisation is all about phrasing and time while still serving the text.

Yes, one can learn a wealth of musical knowledge from playing jazz blues.

[AdroitMage]

You have to learn the language and tell a story. Work on words, then sentences, paragraphs, then the whole solo.

For technique, good time and good sound.

^^^This