Question about improvisation

[charleyrich99]

Nope. Rhythm is an important part of phrasing, but rhythm and phrasing, are two different things, that's why there are two different words for them.

Phrasing tells a "story". Rhythm and timing are some of the tools you utilize to tell the story, but they aren't the story itself.

[ragman1]

So first you ask a question and then supply the answer. Why should your answer be more important than anybody else's?

[pauln]

Asking what is the most important thing is an open ended question so answers may focus on technique, strategies, methods, execution, concepts, results. etc.

"Phrasing" extends to note choice, harmonic context, articulation, tone, rhythm, mood, etc., and multiple spectra of inside/outside, traditional/modern, fast/slow, etc., but also higher level motivations... It is the foundation of too much for clear meaning without further elaboration.

For example,

"If your phrasing is good enough, it almost doesn't matter what notes you play"

"...a thorough understanding of voice leading is like a genie bottle for a jazz musician..."

Those might look like they conflict, but as you know, when Larry and Pat say things like the first one, they are assuming as given more like the second one, as you said earlier:

"...there's a certain amount of technical knowledge you need to possess to be able to handle playing the music. That's just a given. After that, you have to be able to play and make beautiful noise with it..."

[AdroitMage]

So first you ask a question and then supply the answer. Why should your answer be more important than anybody else's?

"More important?" Those are your words, not mine, so please don't try and pin those words on me. My answer is the right answer, though.

[Bob_Ross]

My answer is the right answer, though.

Incorrect.

[pamosmusic]

"More important?" Those are your words, not mine, so please don't try and pin those words on me. My answer is the right answer, though.

Or frame it this way.

When several people offer different answers, why should anyone take yours as the right one.

And for what it’s worth, rhythm is a concept contained inside of phrasing, so saying that rhythm is wrong is like saying flour isn’t the most important ingredient in bread, because it’s the dry ingredients.

But you do you

[supersoul]

Or frame it this way.

When several people offer different answers, why should anyone take yours as the right one.

And for what it’s worth, rhythm is a concept contained inside of phrasing, so saying that rhythm is wrong is like saying flour isn’t the most important ingredient in bread, because it’s the dry ingredients.

But you do you

It might be that he phrased his answer the best.

My answer... is... the right... answer.... though.

[pamosmusic]

It might be that he phrased his answer the best.

My answer... is... the right... answer.... though.

I don't know man.

No clever metaphors. No charming turns of phrase.

I don't think his phrasing was that good at all. It's almost like ........


........ it's subjective.

[supersoul]

I don't know man.

No clever metaphors. No charming turns of phrase.

I don't think his phrasing was that good at all. It's almost like ........


........ it's subjective.

I just think he has the ears of a master. He obviously knows more than the rest of us. We've never heard him play, but there is no reason to doubt his expertise.

[pamosmusic]

I just think he has the ears of a master. He obviously knows more than the rest of us. We've never heard him play, but there is no reason to doubt his expertise.

On the other hand, I find his phrasing to be obnoxious and arrogant, and that really does impact how I estimate and weight the content of his posts.

So … maybe phrasing really is the most important thing?

Dang. Wow. Well played everyone. Well played.

[Christian Miller]

For me? Learn music. Stop noodling.

Improvisation is the application and development of musical ideas in real time. So it starts with music and understanding music.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ragman1]

"More important?" Those are your words, not mine, so please don't try and pin those words on me. My answer is the right answer, though.

But you behave, very obviously, as though it were far more important. In fact, worse than that, that it is the ONLY answer...

My answer is the right answer

... as you can see.

So now you have to tell us why your answer is the absolutely right answer and why everyone else is wrong.

[AdroitMage]

It might be that he phrased his answer the best.

My answer... is... the right... answer.... though.

Right! It had good phrasing, and that's the whole point.

It is just a conversation really, and that is the correct answer.

[AdroitMage]

But you behave, very obviously, as though it were far more important. In fact, worse than that, that it is the ONLY answer...



... as you can see.

So now you have to tell us why your answer is the absolutely right answer and why everyone else is wrong.

Because I said so, as usual.

[Bob_Ross]

Because I sad so, as usual.

I can't remember whether you're paraphrasing Yoda, Baby Yoda, or Jar Jar Binks...but yes, you sad so.

[AdroitMage]

I don't know man.

No clever metaphors. No charming turns of phrase.

I don't think his phrasing was that good at all. It's almost like ........


........ it's subjective.

It really is an important subject to talk about for musicians, and it isn't talked about enough around here.

Charming turns of phrase? It's not always the time for those. Sometimes it's more appropriate to use slang like, bitch or bastard. Slang is an important part of phrasing too. It really is a conversation, and sometimes slang is appropriate in a conversation.

[AdroitMage]

Phrasing tells a "story". Rhythm and timing are some of the tools you utilize to tell the story, but they aren't the story itself.

Something like that.

[digger]

The listener.

What good is the most perfect phrasing, tone, touch, melodic invention, etc. if your tree has fallen in the woods and no-one was there to hear it?

Derek

[princeplanet]

Taste. It infers all else. If we can hear a sense of your own Taste in your playing (and presuming it's good taste), then it will mean you have enough control of enough elements to tell your story with your own voice. Of course it doesn't mean you have every known aspect of playable Jazz guitar concepts at your fingertips, on the contrary, those who are chasing that mostly don't live long enough to really find their own voice, or sense of Taste. But filtering out the stuff that just isn't you, and focusing on what really is, you can make a compelling Jazz noise, me thinks.

Mind you, I'm certainly someone who perhaps should be taking my own advice, I spend more time developing concepts than working on a refined voice, or sense of Taste. But I'm in no hurry, and very much enjoying the (long) journey...

[supersoul]

Right! It had good phrasing, and that's the whole point.

It is just a conversation really, and that is the correct answer.

Saying that the most important thing to improvisation is good phrasing is like saying that the most important thing to improvisation is having good improvisation skills.

It's meaningless. You can't have good phrasing without good rhythm, melody, harmony, a sense of pitch and dynamics. All that, and more, is necessary to tell a good story, which is what good improvisation is ultimately all about.

[lammie200]

Not only that good phrasing is a prerequisite for good composition in and of itself. May have nothing to do with improvisation. I feel like we are using a hammer to smash gnats.

[AdroitMage]

Or frame it this way.

When several people offer different answers, why should anyone take yours as the right one.

Because I said so, as usual.

And for what it’s worth, rhythm is a concept contained inside of phrasing, so saying that rhythm is wrong is like saying flour isn’t the most important ingredient in bread, because it’s the dry ingredients.

But you do you

Okay, okay, rhythm is part of good phrasing. You can't have good phrasing without good rhythm. So, rhythm is an important part of having good phrasing. Phrasing, though, has its own subset of things going on that aren't necessarily part of the definition of rhythm. Therefore saying good phrasing is rhythm is not wrong, but it's an incomplete answer because there is more to good phrasing than rhythm, though rhythm is an important part of it. So yeah, I see what you're saying about good rhythm being an integral part of good phrasing, yet, IMO, they are still two different things.

Does that make sense?

Asking what is the most important thing is an open ended question so answers may focus on technique, strategies, methods, execution, concepts, results. etc.

"Phrasing" extends to note choice, harmonic context, articulation, tone, rhythm, mood, etc., and multiple spectra of inside/outside, traditional/modern, fast/slow, etc., but also higher level motivations... It is the foundation of too much for clear meaning without further elaboration.

Very well stated. Yes, yes, true that, phrasing is actually a very complex and deep subject that has a multitude of facets to it.

For example,

"If your phrasing is good enough, it almost doesn't matter what notes you play"

"...a thorough understanding of voice leading is like a genie bottle for a jazz musician..."

Those might look like they conflict, but as you know, when Larry and Pat say things like the first one, they are assuming as given more like the second one, as you said earlier:

"...there's a certain amount of technical knowledge you need to possess to be able to handle playing the music. That's just a given. After that, you have to be able to play and make beautiful noise with it..."

[pamosmusic]

Because I said so, as usual.



Okay, okay, rhythm is part of good phrasing. You can't have good phrasing without good rhythm. So, rhythm is an important part of having good phrasing. Phrasing, though, has its own subset of things going on that aren't necessarily part of the definition of rhythm. Therefore saying good phrasing is rhythm is not wrong, but it's an incomplete answer because there is more to good phrasing than rhythm, though rhythm is an important part of it. So yeah, I see what you're saying about good rhythm being an integral part of good phrasing, yet, IMO, they are still two different things.

Does that make sense?

In a superficial sort of way, but you haven’t actually said what those other elements are.

So the person arguing that flour isn’t the most important ingredient in bread because the dry ingredients are most important n might sound kind of silly, but they could at least tell you that the remaining ingredients are sugar, yeast, salt, etc. And they could probably tell you why each is important and what role they play in the process.

So …. what are the other elements of good phrasing, separate from rhythm, and why are they not more or less important than rhythm to the idea of phrasing?

[pauln]

Whats the single most important thing when improvising on guitar, or any instrument for that matter?

[AdroitMage]

Saying that the most important thing to improvisation is good phrasing is like saying that the most important thing to improvisation is having good improvisation skills.

No it isn't.