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... well at least on a beginner's level.
This is on the very first baby steps toward learning to play something like chord melodies.
Star with something simple, say Consider Me Gone written by Sting in his early, more jazz oriented days of his solo career. Although not my preferred version let me use the studio recording as the reference. You find various leadsheets and even sheet music on the tune, probably oversimplified. but anyway ... how can i conclude from the chords i find there to the tonality resp mode.
i am actually not familiar with mode theory but feel that i need it in order to extend my bass lines into chord lines
there are (basically, the reality is more complex that the leadsheets) two chords, D minor and its fifth (sometime writtes as F/A, but an arpeggio on Amaj will sound correct in the bass line).
In that context the tonal reservoir seems to be mostly C maj. And i would like to get hints in which modes/scales the guys are playing / improvising ...
Any help?
BTW: i actually prefer the following recording, which is a semitone lower:
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05-27-2025 07:49 PM
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What is a "tonality resp mode?"
What you are describing in terms of the chords [Dmin7 and F/A) sounds like a modal tune, which would either be Dorian (ii) and Lydian (IV) if the key signature is C major; or if the key is F major, Aeolian and Ionian. Or it could be in D minor with F/A as the relative major; or F with D minor as the relative minor; or Bb major with the chords being the iii and V. Or...
Two chords is harmonically ambiguous, especially when they are the relative major/minor for each other. The D minor triad appears in three major keys as does the F major triad (C, Bb and F).
Your reference to an Amaj7 arpeggio sounding correct over the F/A is interesting, since Amaj7 is comprised of A C# E G# and F/A would be A F A C; C# would be a #5 and G# would be a #9. The accidentals in that line may function as leading tones resolving to the D minor (C# resolving to D, E resolving to F and G# resolving to A).
Listening to the recording you posted, it does pretty much sound like a groove on one chord underneath the song (C#min, a half-step low as you mentioned), but the horns are playing a superimposed harmony over that. I don't have a guitar to hand at the moment to figure that out. Someone with a better trained ear than mine will be able to tell you what that is.
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tonality or mode might be better.
Originally Posted by Cunamara
I did anoter mor thorough check. In the "D-minor-version / studio recording" it is clearly an Arpeggio on F A C, i.e. nothing really unconventional (a bit hard to play along as the tuning from the CD is higher than my normal tuning of 440Hz; but with a fretless bass ist becomes clear)Your reference to an Amaj7 arpeggio sounding correct over the F/A is interesting, since Amaj7 is comprised of A C# E G# and F/A would be A F A C; C# would be a #5 and G# would be a #9.
I actually have a lead sheet for that version, too. That's more complicated; it introduces further chords like a F# maj into the C#min groove (IMO mainly coming in through the melody and through the bass groove)Listening to the recording you posted, it does pretty much sound like a groove on one chord underneath the song (C#min, a half-step low as you mentioned), but the horns are playing a superimposed harmony over that. I don't have a guitar to hand at the moment to figure that out. Someone with a better trained ear than mine will be able to tell you what that is.
And in place of the F/A there is something like G#maj #5#9 which corresponds to my statement of a-c#-e being correct. But after closer listening this is not the case.
Which means that i need to correct myself (mhmm, another lesson of "don't trust any leadsheet even if it is sold commercially"?).
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Nothing you're describing is on a beginner's level. Start with something a lot simpler. Originally Posted by beate_r
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What do You expect here?
Questions regarding harmonizing "Alle meine Entchen" (something you might have learned even at school) ?
This said, beginner might be relative.
As a player i am actually pretty experienced, and i am pretty deep in playing chords on the bass as well as on the guitar.
But regarding understanding analysis of modal stuff i am clearly and obviously on a beginner's level. Even more in my abilities as a composer. And that is simply a demand if You try to emerge from simply playing leadsheets and blues pentatonics forever.
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back to the song: after some experimention it looks to me as if in the chorus (the F/A part) an aeolian scale might be used. What do You think?
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my 2c ….
the main groove over C#minor ….
feels like C# dorian but note
when Sting sings
“There are …”
he sings notes Ab G Eb
so that G note is worth noting (and quoting)
The other chord is an Alt V chord something like
Ab7#9(b13)
so you can got fully ‘out’
on this section
(I like Ab gypsy)
(5th mode of Harm Minor)
but there are lots and lots of
ways to go ‘out’
maybe people will chime in ?
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You said beginner's level, nothing else. If we look at what you asked we have this: Originally Posted by beate_r
A is the fifth of the Dm chord but it is not written F/A. F/A is an inversion of the F major chord where the third, A, is at the bottom. On a guitar usually played 5x35 xx, which is AxFCxx. Even then you may have a melody note on top which would better define the chord in context.D minor and its fifth (sometime writtes as F/A, but an arpeggio on Amaj will sound correct in the bass line).
What scale you use depends on the key you're in at the time. If it's C then play C maj scale. If F, then F maj. If Bb, then Bb. But this tune looks as though it's in a minor key. So A, D or G minor.
But if it's in C/Am and you're playing Dm then it's probably modal in which case Dorian. But not necessarily.
The problem here is context. What are the rest of the chords? What is the next chord after the F/A? And what comes before it?
But even so, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll play a scale or a mode. Depends on the tempo of the tune. It may be momentary and only need a couple of notes.
Even you must see this is nonsense. How can an A major arpeggio possibly go over an F major chord? The notes and sound of it are totally different. F maj from the note A is A B C D E F G A (depending on the key) and A maj is A B C# D E F# G# A. There is no relation.an arpeggio on Amaj will sound correct in the bass line
Anyway, pingu seems to be onto something so good luck with that.
May I suggest something? Post the leadsheet you have here. It will definitely open a very big door. The video starts in C#m by the way so I assume you've changed it to Dm.
This one's in C minor!
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Ragman, if you’re going to tell someone they’re being dumb, you could actually make the effort to tell them what IS going on on the recording rather than just telling them that it couldn’t possibly be what they say it is.
Surely that would take less time than these long, multiple post tirades
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Oh, eff off!
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lol. Originally Posted by ragman1
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beate_r
Post the lead sheet. No more guessing.
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ragman. Google it. No more haranguing. Originally Posted by ragman1
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On behalf of a command of someone telling me dumb?
The leadsheets are easily to find (for me), especially for people considering themselves not dumb (i assume).
BTW: the "wrong" chord in the (in the c# version) can be found in something distributed commercially. I have only the first page. Something i did already mention.
Meanwhile i found out and wrote here that an Aeolian scale would fit on the chorus (the F/A).
BTW: i have seen so many incomplete or even false leadsheets and sheet notes that in my opinion nothing can be taken without verification. (Which is a bit annoying, but it forces You to dig in deeper, and digging in deeper is actually good)
BTW: here You might understand my opinion: https://www.chords-and-tabs.net/song...ider-me-gone-3
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It's generally repeating a split bar of i / IV with some 'blue' notes ( including a b5) dotted here and there in the melody, backing and solos.
Not a song I would particularly want to analyse, but each to their own.
Have fun!Last edited by garybaldy; 05-28-2025 at 09:11 PM.
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beate_r
I did not say you were dumb. There were no multiple posts and no tirades (tiraden). Pamosmusic tells lies. He comes to cause trouble, not to help you. He is not a good person. He knows what he's doing. This is the internet. Do not believe what you read.
Listening to the live video there are many bars of Cm. The fills and solos are in C dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C) which is a mode of Bb major, and also Cm pentatonic with blue notes. It's not actually difficult.
The other chord might be Eb/G (3x13xx) or EbM7/G (3x133x) which doesn't sound too off. Also the band might be playing Cm9 because Sting sings a lot of D notes. Otherwise just Cm or Cm7.
I'm not sure why you're doing it in D minor. Unless that's what your leadsheet says.
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I would just ask how many times you've told someone on this forum to "eff off" or called them an "effing loser" today before you make the comparison. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Sounds about right, Em/A (major), but the keyboard players adds a few nebulous sounding 6/9 or suspended chords such as : Originally Posted by garybaldy
Em6 or Em6/9: | x-x-5-4-2-0 | & | x-x-5-4-2-2 |
Sting is singing a blues scale.
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I’m not reading all this crap.
To OP directly. Don’t get mixed up in modes and music theory.
You need to learn a few things
Diatonic chords and the number system.
I ii iii IV V7 vi vii
in C that’s
C major
D minor
E minor
F major
G dominant
A minor
B minor 7 flat 5
Get a sheet of their inversions and learn the grips.
Now that you have movable grips, pick an harmonically easy song, something without slash chords. Cute by Count Basie is a good one.
Get your lead sheet and your inversion sheet and line up the melody note with a chord inversion that fits it.
Boom, done. The first one will take a week but the second one will only take six and a half days. Eventually you’ll be able to work it out in your head and get clever with your harmony. DONT GET CLEVER NOW, focus on basic harmony and arrangements you can play.
Make music and grow slowly. The journey is the destination.
If you want one quick tip to chord melody you won’t find it. No matter how many books or masterclass videos you buy. Or how many forum arguments you get in, the only way to do this is to sit down and slowly work it out.
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Don't even need it with this tune, it's really just a minor blues. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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That's what everyone does with this kind of minor vamp. Pink Floyd got helluva lot of mileage out of it with Gilmour and Wright playing blues over the chords. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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We are actually discussing which tonality to use, and there is a tendency toward c# minor. BTW: i have checked more than that single source. That's why i can write about the differences in them. Originally Posted by ragman1
And it is my job to find a good arrangement (we are bass/baritone guitar, vocals/alto sax and drums)
@AllanAllen: thanks for the hints
We recently did A Remark You Made as a voice & bass duo. Which i can play, even bass lines mixed with chords, but have yet to fully understand the structure... and that comparatively simple Sting tune (for my 2nd project, yes, sting cover) appeared to me a good opprtunity to dig a bit deeper on the background side. Which it already is if i summarize the current discussion for myself.DONT GET CLEVER NOW, focus on basic harmony and arrangements you can play.
Indeed.Make music and grow slowly. The journey is the destination.
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I hear the C# minor but the bass player is playing E a lot (the sound is murky), could be just going from Em to E major rather than Em to A major (A6, A^7, etc.), the sus chords make that unclear. Originally Posted by beate_r
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And ofcourse Em6 is just A9 and Em6/9 is A13. Simple common embellishments. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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I listened to the recording, I hear a C#m to Ebm vamp and would play C#m stuff over it, blues pentatonic, dorian, probably not harmonic minor, I personally think that gives a sophisticated sound and this tune is a bluesy vamp.
So when playing I would avoid the minor 6, use major 7 and major 3 as a passing tones, all within C#m. By avoid minor 6, I mean, I wouldn't start my solo on the m6. You can bet on the second chorus I'll hit it to see what happens.
I wouldn't use this tune for chord melody playing or chord scale theory. It's not a good tune for chord melody, and I'm not clever enough for the CST game... too many labels for me. Rote memorization of facts is not one of my strengths.
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