The most important musical skill you will ever develop

[Reg]

Yea... you need to be able to feel and imply time. The foot tap thing use to be a problem in studios and recording. At gigs... I still like physical movement... foot tapping etc. It's fun and part of creating feels and can be part of entertainment etc... Movement can help make music Live.

There's a difference between bad or lousy time... and being able to push and pull the music.

I've always pushed getting your technical skill together... technical skills on your instrument... chops helps one be able to subdivide which helps eliminate time problems, or at least makes them less obvious.

[lammie200]

...Movement can help make music Live...

I think that is called "Dance" which is like syncopated pattern making with body movements. I like foot tapping, but sometimes I think of my fingers dancing along the strings when I play. Syncopated pattern making.

[Reg]

I think that is called "Dance" which is like syncopated pattern making with body movements. I like foot tapping, but sometimes I think of my fingers dancing along the strings when I play. Syncopated pattern making.

LOL yea I like that... I guess your partner, keep the analogy going would be your guitar or the music.

[AllanAllen]

LOL yea I like that... I guess your partner, keep the analogy going would be your guitar or the music.

That’s why I stand and play, so I can move. If the band doesn’t look like they’re having fun, the listeners are less likely to have fun.

[pauln]

Pat Metheny said the drummer is always the leader of the band. That is because the drummer "owns the rhythm", the one who sets and maintains the pace, the tacit conductor for everyone else. Drummers face two problems:

- learning to play by playing along with the recordings. This trains them to follow the pace set by another rather than lead. They must realize their role and learn to own, set, and maintain rather than follow. Fortunately, this is corrected by playing with others (real live musicians), which drummers may do pretty well - earlier than those of us playing on strings, keys, and horns.

- learning how to lead (set and maintain the pace) with the minimum amount of execution on their drum kit (compared to rock, blues, pop, etc.); this takes time and experience.

For the rest of us, playing along with recordings is good; it trains how to hear the drummer's pace and find our place with respect to it, but it is far superior to play with others for many reasons.

Connecting the dots... the reason it is so importantly stressed to play with others as soon as possible, as often as possible, as much as possible, is for the development of rhythm... which I've heard is the most important musical skill you will ever develop.

[kevmoga]

I once had the opportunity to sit side of stage at a show where David Hood, renowned Muscle Shoals rhythm section bassist, was performing. This is a musician who has played on more world-class recordings than most of us could count. He was constantly rocking his heel in triplet subdivision of the beat. I talked to him about it after the performance and he said “Oh yeah, that’s my metronome” elaborating that the triplet worked much better for him than quarter-note or 2&4 tapping. I’m okay with foot-tapping or whatever tools anyone brings to bear to improve their time feel.

[supersoul]

I'm not sure I agree that the drummer is always the leader of a band. Super important, but so is the bass player, and other rhythm instruments matter too. It's about how everyone plays together, and if one player is weak with rhythm, it can bring down the whole thing (which I think is the OP's point).
Charles Mingus is an example of a bass player who absolutely drives the band. Charlie Haden drives the Ornette groups just as much as Ed Blackwell. Freddie Green is the engine and the gasoline of the Count Basie bands.

[pamosmusic]

I'm not sure I agree that the drummer is always the leader of a band. Super important, but so is the bass player, and other rhythm instruments matter too. It's about how everyone plays together, and if one player is weak with rhythm, it can bring down the whole thing (which I think is the OP's point).
Charles Mingus is an example of a bass player who absolutely drives the band. Charlie Haden drives the Ornette groups just as much as Ed Blackwell. Freddie Green is the engine and the gasoline of the Count Basie bands.

Yeah try not going along with a bassist rushing their quarter notes.

Not going to happen.

I've heard the drummer described as the conductor and I like that. Less about keeping the tempo and more about shaping and accenting and describing the time. The bassist gives you the tempo and the drummer tells you what it should feel like.

[grahambop]

I heard an Art Blakey interview where he strongly objected to the idea that the drummer is the timekeeper (he got quite angry about it in fact!). He said that he expected everyone in his band to just know where the beat is and play in time together, without having to listen to him. Otherwise they will tend to fall slightly behind (I think that’s what he said).

Of course he was talking about musicians at the skill level of the Jazz Messengers, but it’s an interesting point.

[AllanAllen]

I heard an Art Blakey interview where he strongly objected to the idea that the drummer is the timekeeper (he got quite angry about it in fact!). He said that he expected everyone in his band to just know where the beat is and play in time together, without having to listen to him. Otherwise they will tend to fall slightly behind (I think that’s what he said).

Of course he was talking about musicians at the skill level of the Jazz Messengers, but it’s an interesting point.

The band keeps time together. If someone rushes or drags they get followed.

Y’all are mixing philosophy with a real world craft. Sometimes you find Adam in the marble, most of the time you slice the marble into 1” sheets for counter tops.

[Stringswinger]

It depends on the band. In some bands, the drummer is the main time keeper, in other bands it is the bass player and in other bands, nobody keeps time, it is simply implied.

I once saw Blakey and Mingus perform together. It was not good. Those two had a different groove and neither of them were very flexible. I find that with some cats, locking in is easy, with others it is hard and with some it is impossible. I tend to play pretty close to the beat. Some cats like to play way behind the beat and that can be difficult for me.

[Bob_Ross]

The band keeps time together. If someone rushes or drags they get followed.

Or, they don't, and then their rushing/dragging becomes all the more conspicuous. Five guys on the bandstand and one of them rushes or drags? It'd be a pretty weak ensemble if the other four just followed along

...unless that one Russian Dragon happens to be the drummer, and then all bets are off.

I've always said that timekeeping is a consensus: Everyone in the band is responsible for keeping it -- and for helping everyone else keep it. Kind of like the strategies used by improvisational theater actors (e.g., "Yes, and...") it's everyone's responsibility to make everyone else in the band sound good.

[AllanAllen]

Or, they don't, and then their rushing/dragging becomes all the more conspicuous. Five guys on the bandstand and one of them rushes or drags? It'd be a pretty weak ensemble if the other four just followed along

...unless that one Russian Dragon happens to be the drummer, and then all bets are off.

I've always said that timekeeping is a consensus: Everyone in the band is responsible for keeping it -- and for helping everyone else keep it. Kind of like the strategies used by improvisational theater actors (e.g., "Yes, and...") it's everyone's responsibility to make everyone else in the band sound good.

If one guy rushes and the rest of the band stands their ground, it sounds worse than just adjusting the tempo.

Sometimes, at a gig or jam, you have to make do with what’s happening. If you’re the only guy who is right, it often sounds like you’re wrong. Like I said, this conversation is largely philosophical.

Away from philosophy, you have to lead the weakest player, or else they’ll lead you.

[lammie200]

BTW, I think there was another thread about lead versus rhythm playing and that rhythm playing was more important. Maybe this pertained to the rock genre as opposed to jazz? However, there is a difference between lead playing and soloing. Lead is comprehensive to the composition, as is rhythm. Soloing is specific measures within. I think that the industry labels were misleading. But it doesn't matter much any more. Most new songs are pretty much hacks of music anyway, and the only labels that matter are "Artist" and "Co-producer."

[DawgBone]

If one guy rushes and the rest of the band stands their ground, it sounds worse than just adjusting the tempo.

Sometimes, at a gig or jam, you have to make do with what’s happening. If you’re the only guy who is right, it often sounds like you’re wrong. Like I said, this conversation is largely philosophical.

Away from philosophy, you have to lead the weakest player, or else they’ll lead you.

If one guy is rushing he needs to be told to cool it ASAP. I do not care to adjust tempo for those with the wrong timing, that's bad form if the offender is not the bandleader. Usually in my group the drummer will start hollering loud enough over the music to get the offending party's attention but that is pretty rare.

Thread was inspired by me helping some guys out at a gig and maybe 2 or 3 out of six people had any semblance of time. In that instance, when it's not my band, and the drummer is all over the place, you're pretty much left to make the best of it. Prior to having a group of regulars I had dozens of rage inducing nights dealing with loser "musicians" who can't count. Bad timing makes smoke come out of my ears. I've been doing it to long to put up with bums. I'd say the same thing about light hitters on the kit at a gig where we can put the pedal down. No clue.

[Django Johnson]

I don't know if someone can develop good timing musically. I grew up playing along to records so I guess that helped my timing. However keeping time is important if not the most important thing when playing with others.

[AllanAllen]

I don't know if someone can develop good timing musically. I grew up playing along to records so I guess that helped my timing. However keeping time is important if not the most important thing when playing with others.

Dude, timing is not intrinsic, someone with bad time just needs to get a metronome and work on it.

[rpjazzguitar]

Dude, timing is not intrinsic, someone with bad time just needs to get a metronome and work on it.

I play with a pianist who practices, partly, this way. He records a piece, to a click, on his keyboard. Then he uses some of the bells and whistles to slow the recording down. That way, he can hear even slight deviations from the click. Then he does it again, with the goal of getting ever closer to the click.

I'm of two minds about this. I can see how it might enhance your ability to hear where you are in relation to the click.

But, I also think, what if he gets there? Say he's on the click within a millisecond or less (probably impossible, but bear with me). At that point his time is mechanically perfect. But, will the music sound good? Can it swing? Or does it sound like a machine?

He's working on good time, not good time feel, IMO. Good music can be played to a click, but can it be played exactly on the click?

Of course, at least, he's working on something. How do you work on good time feel?

My thoughts are as follows, with the caveat that I'm nowhere near where I'd like to be with it.

1. You should be able to play with good time feel by yourself. Also, with others. If you can't do it solo, you aren't there yet.

2. You need the chops to execute your ideas smoothly. If you're struggling to play something, time may be the first thing to go. The metronome can help with that, so you can't pretend you aren't screwing it up.

3. You need to always remember to keep your time snappy. I find it easy for my mind to wander away from it (like thinking about chord grips, or note choices or whatever). Time suffers.

4. Play with people who are good enough that the group can have good time feel. If somebody's time is bad enough it can feel like you can't play.

5. If you can't hear everybody else clearly you're too loud. That can be a problem, at least for me, if I'm not careful. I like to hear my solo pretty loud. But, that's a bug, not a feature. You need to make sure that you can hear the rest of the players. Sometimes, a bandstand makes that difficult. Make sure you can hear the bass.

6. And, then, at some point, you might find that you've heard players whose time feel you love, but you can't do it their way. So, you're stuck making your own way work. At that point, to quote that great sage, "Trust your feelings".

[pamosmusic]

I play with a pianist who practices, partly, this way. He records a piece, to a click, on his keyboard. Then he uses some of the bells and whistles to slow the recording down. That way, he can hear even slight deviations from the click. Then he does it again, with the goal of getting ever closer to the click.

I'm of two minds about this. I can see how it might enhance your ability to hear where you are in relation to the click.

But, I also think, what if he gets there? Say he's on the click within a millisecond or less (probably impossible, but bear with me). At that point his time is mechanically perfect. But, will the music sound good? Can it swing? Or does it sound like a machine?

He's working on good time, not good time feel, IMO. Good music can be played to a click, but can it be played exactly on the click?

Of course, at least, he's working on something. How do you work on good time feel?

My thoughts are as follows, with the caveat that I'm nowhere near where I'd like to be with it.

1. You should be able to play with good time feel by yourself. Also, with others. If you can't do it solo, you aren't there yet.

2. You need the chops to execute your ideas smoothly. If you're struggling to play something, time may be the first thing to go. The metronome can help with that, so you can't pretend you aren't screwing it up.

3. You need to always remember to keep your time snappy. I find it easy for my mind to wander away from it (like thinking about chord grips, or note choices or whatever). Time suffers.

4. Play with people who are good enough that the group can have good time feel. If somebody's time is bad enough it can feel like you can't play.

5. If you can't hear everybody else clearly you're too loud. That can be a problem, at least for me, if I'm not careful. I like to hear my solo pretty loud. But, that's a bug, not a feature. You need to make sure that you can hear the rest of the players. Sometimes, a bandstand makes that difficult. Make sure you can hear the bass.

6. And, then, at some point, you might find that you've heard players whose time feel you love, but you can't do it their way. So, you're stuck making your own way work. At that point, to quote that great sage, "Trust your feelings".

it’s possible you’re overthinking this one.

Whenever someone’s response to a practice strategy is “what if I lose that indefinable thing that makes me unique in this world” I kind of yawn

[DawgBone]

I play with a pianist who practices, partly, this way. He records a piece, to a click, on his keyboard. Then he uses some of the bells and whistles to slow the recording down. That way, he can hear even slight deviations from the click. Then he does it again, with the goal of getting ever closer to the click.

I'm of two minds about this. I can see how it might enhance your ability to hear where you are in relation to the click.

But, I also think, what if he gets there? Say he's on the click within a millisecond or less (probably impossible, but bear with me). At that point his time is mechanically perfect. But, will the music sound good? Can it swing? Or does it sound like a machine?

He's working on good time, not good time feel, IMO. Good music can be played to a click, but can it be played exactly on the click?

Of course, at least, he's working on something. How do you work on good time feel?

My thoughts are as follows, with the caveat that I'm nowhere near where I'd like to be with it.

1. You should be able to play with good time feel by yourself. Also, with others. If you can't do it solo, you aren't there yet.

2. You need the chops to execute your ideas smoothly. If you're struggling to play something, time may be the first thing to go. The metronome can help with that, so you can't pretend you aren't screwing it up.

3. You need to always remember to keep your time snappy. I find it easy for my mind to wander away from it (like thinking about chord grips, or note choices or whatever). Time suffers.

4. Play with people who are good enough that the group can have good time feel. If somebody's time is bad enough it can feel like you can't play.

5. If you can't hear everybody else clearly you're too loud. That can be a problem, at least for me, if I'm not careful. I like to hear my solo pretty loud. But, that's a bug, not a feature. You need to make sure that you can hear the rest of the players. Sometimes, a bandstand makes that difficult. Make sure you can hear the bass.

6. And, then, at some point, you might find that you've heard players whose time feel you love, but you can't do it their way. So, you're stuck making your own way work. At that point, to quote that great sage, "Trust your feelings".

Number 4 is especially sound advice. And also why I said guys who have bad time need to be called on it because it's true, you basically can't play because there is no time assurance so you might find yourself parsing lead phrases to compensate since there won't be good flow. One bad apple ruins the whole bunch the same way one player with poor time feel causes the band and all the music to suffer.

I would also add that you need to practice and work over different rhythms and know your weakness areas. I was always struggling with medium slow shuffles. Playing changes plus getting lead notes sitting right within time can be a challenge for me. I'm better on a faster shuffle. I put some time in and now it has helped both my slower shuffle, and my uptempo shuffle game.

I have known many guys who could shuffle like crazy, rhythm or lead, but completely fell on their face if something was heavily syncopated and funky and vice versa. I've known jazzers who could blow rhythm changes but biffed hard on a straight I-IV-V in a 12/8 blues. Granted you can't be a master of everything but you should be versed enough to play the mainstay of what you find in your chosen genre.

[wolflen]

Playing against the beat BUT staying in time is a developed skill that takes some practice..while it seems like a simple style..Reggae can trip you up..

In playing some fusion tunes it may feel like the time is way off..meter changes??..perhaps..half the band is in 3/4 the other half in a different meter..

McLaughlin had a tune like that with the MO.

I try and work with the best bass players and have practice sessions with them .. just on odd polymeter exercises.

The precision of Steely Dan vs the chaos of Hendrix..I find Mitch Michell hard to listen..maybe its just me.

[Woody Sound]

Not really a skill, but when practicing,

”DON’T PRACTICE THE MISTAKE.”

If you repeatedly play something wrong, it makes it harder to correct it.