George Benson teacher attacking other teacher calling him idiot, a-hole and loser

[Jonah]

Please describe what you mean by shifting positions with the four finger.

I guess Mick-7 meant having four fingers he would use them all and stay in the same position (rather than shifting position ‘with my fourth finger’ … so to speak .. ‘on board’

[Tal_175]

I guess Mick-7 meant having four fingers he would use them all and stay in the same position (rather than shifting position ‘with my fourth finger’ … so to speak .. ‘on board’

My guess is he meant shifting positions with the pinky as the leading finger.

[unknownguitarplayer]

Peter Farrell made some kind of business deal with GB to get his endorsement and presumably, some amount of cooperation on the books. That's great, but not to be confused with him being the GB Whisperer - the only one who has really absorbed George's incredible style. Perry Hughes, Henry Johnson, JC Stylles and several others have been close with George over the years and know his style as well as anyone. Maybe Peter is a better teacher than the others, maybe not. I guess you can buy the books and find out...or give one of those other guys a call.

[DestinyT]

Are the youtube personalities not in a quarrel or conflict?

Without question, they are - but I'm not sure why you refer to the 'pushing of YouTube feuds'. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first instance of a 'feud' to have appeared in my feed.

What I wish would stop is the sordid proliferation of thinly-veiled engagement marketing. I acknowledge that the option to 'click the three dots' is available, but I would rather it weren't necessary.

Frankly, I'm no more reassured by advice to 'click the three dots' than by the suggestion of yesteryear to 'just switch off (the TV)' or 'just say no (to drugs)'. Nevertheless, I accept that taking personal responsibility and clicking those dots will 'teach' the algorithm, thereby containing the problem - which is what I habitually do.

The many heartening instances
of information and ideas being shared, with no agenda other than to be helpful, set a wonderful example to follow and spread joy and beauty.

Knowing and loving people who have died for the opportunity to play this music, I never lose sight of what is important.

[Mick-7]

Please describe what you mean by shifting positions with the four finger.

Actually, I was referring to Christian's remark that Allan Holdsworth does this but I'm not sure exactly what he had in mind so my comment was ill informed. Guess I'll have to go watch videos of Allan to find out.

I can certainly see how the more classical hand position could affect the way one tends to phrase lines. You can this clearly illustrated if you watch a video of a "Great Guitars" performance (Charlie Byrd, Herb Ellis & Barney Kessell). The character of Charlie's lines is different than Herb's & Barney's, how much of that is due to his classical technique, I don't know.

I do think it's important to explore how playing mechanics are affecting your musical expression, you may discover a habit, something you never considered, that's holding you back.

I've been playing 12 tone lines from Nicholas Slonimsky's book lately, which can go from one end of the neck to the other and have wide interval leaps - excellent technical practice and ear training too. I'll try to play them without using my pinky and see what happens, should be interesting. I - or my orthopedic physician (hopefully not the latter) - will report back to you.

[Mick-7]

Allan does that SO much, drives I mad it does.

When you say, "switching positions with his 4th finger" are you referring to the wide interval lines he'll play on one string? (rather than on two). That's the only instance I've seen where it would be practical to do that, when you intend to keep going up the neck.

[pauln]

Actually, I was referring to Christian's remark that Allan Holdsworth does this but I'm not sure exactly what he had in mind so my comment was ill informed.

Maybe CM will demystify what he meant. I was having trouble imagining the mechanics of what position shifting with the fourth finger might be. Or shifting off the fourth. Pivot on, off, from, to, about...the fourth? Prepositions are the key to grasping mechanics... Shifting is one of those verbs that takes an object, something is being shifted and something is causing the shift, sometimes both are the same thing (a person shifting from one end of the couch to the other).

I shift my thumb and hand both independently and together. I play with all four fingers, approximately parallel to the frets, thumb behind the neck, no hand contact with the neck. I do three three kinds of shift:

Hand shift - the thumb stays put and the hand shifts
I do this to reach up or down the neck one or two frets when the hand shift is temporary and will return

Thumb shift - same as above except the thumb follows after the hand has shifted
I do this when the one or two fret hand shift will not immediately return

Arm shift - the arm shifts hand and thumb same time together
I do this for shifts further than two frets

I generally hand shift at least once each second, thumb shift every second or two, and arm shift every few seconds

[nyc chaz]

Peter Farrell made some kind of business deal with GB to get his endorsement and presumably, some amount of cooperation on the books. That's great, but not to be confused with him being the GB Whisperer - the only one who has really absorbed George's incredible style. Perry Hughes, Henry Johnson, JC Stylles and several others have been close with George over the years and know his style as well as anyone. Maybe Peter is a better teacher than the others, maybe not. I guess you can buy the books and find out...or give one of those other guys a call.

Honestly,i don't think you have to be close to George to play like him.There are literally hundred's of guys on smooth jazz radio over the last 40 plus years that can sound like him.I don't think they needed Pete's books to accomplish this,just a good ear and a lot of hard work and talent.

[Christian Miller]

Please describe what you mean by shifting positions with the four finger.

Playing a pitch with the fourth finger and then sliding up to another note with that finger and playing that

Some of Allan’s lines are unplayable without doing this.


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[GuyBoden]

Maybe this.

You can move your fourth finger up a fret from a 3NPS pattern to a 4NPS pattern.

Likewise, you can also move your first finger down a fret from a 3NPS pattern to a 4NPS pattern.

(NPS = Notes Per String)

(Beware, 4NPS stretches can be damaging overtime)

[pauln]

I do both, slide reach and 4NPS; nice for stretchy things
(e.g., Lydian Dominant with four degrees of whole tones)

[MarkRhodes]

My guess is he meant shifting positions with the pinky as the leading finger.

FWIW, that's how I took it.

[Mick-7]

Playing a pitch with the fourth finger and then sliding up to another note with that finger and playing that. Some of Allan’s lines are unplayable without doing this.

Could you please give me an example of such a line?

[lawson-stone]

This whole thing started because Chase said Peter's licks were too long.

Who was Peter licking for too long? We talking ice cream cones here or something more personal?

[lawson-stone]

Maybe CM will demystify what he meant. I was having trouble imagining the mechanics of what position shifting with the fourth finger might be. Or shifting off the fourth. Pivot on, off, from, to, about...the fourth? Prepositions are the key to grasping mechanics... Shifting is one of those verbs that takes an object, something is being shifted and something is causing the shift, sometimes both are the same thing (a person shifting from one end of the couch to the other).

I shift my thumb and hand both independently and together. I play with all four fingers, approximately parallel to the frets, thumb behind the neck, no hand contact with the neck. I do three three kinds of shift:

Hand shift - the thumb stays put and the hand shifts
I do this to reach up or down the neck one or two frets when the hand shift is temporary and will return

Thumb shift - same as above except the thumb follows after the hand has shifted
I do this when the one or two fret hand shift will not immediately return

Arm shift - the arm shifts hand and thumb same time together
I do this for shifts further than two frets

I generally hand shift at least once each second, thumb shift every second or two, and arm shift every few seconds

But how could a truly correct and proper jazz guitarist pivot off the 4th finger when we all know that Great Jazz Guitarists play exclusively with 3 fingers????

[Tal_175]

Who was Peter licking for too long? We talking ice cream cones here or something more personal?

Not just the long licks but I think he also didn't like the fingerings.

[Bambus123]

Funny how this thread ended up discussing fingerings instead of the first post..

[Christian Miller]

Could you please give me an example of such a line?

Sure. The big stretch lick from city Nights is the most crazed example, but there’s quite a few in the solo I’ve transcribed - lots of stretch dim shapes that have to played on certain strings due to speed efficiencies but also involve shifting on the pinky.

I’ll post some examples when I’m able.


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[Christian Miller]

Maybe this.

You can move your fourth finger up a fret from a 3NPS pattern to a 4NPS pattern.

Likewise, you can also move your first finger down a fret from a 3NPS pattern to a 4NPS pattern.

(NPS = Notes Per String)

(Beware, 4NPS stretches can be damaging overtime)

No not really


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[Christian Miller]

Ok. So watch Derryl’s hands very closely at 0:15 and you’ll see it

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[Christian Miller]

OK, these are fingerings I'm fairly confident of.These fingerings were reconstructed by ear, but if you listen carefully you can hear when Allan is hammering and when he is shifting. Also in many of these cases the fingerings are the fastest available which is particularly acute for these 3nps diminished patterns, so if you choose not to little finger slides, you will find yourself unable to play the rest of the run at speed usually.

Sorry I haven't marked the slides in - how have to infer them from the fingerings.

Really, once you have the legato smooth and even the hardest thing is really those 4th finger shifts about these runs. It's a thing.

[Christian Miller]

Oh and here's a genuine 4nps pattern from Allan. Not all that common - Allan was mostly a 3nps player - but cool when he does it

Again, this is a fingering I'd be prepared to defend academically haha

[pauln]

But how could a truly correct and proper jazz guitarist pivot off the 4th finger when we all know that Great Jazz Guitarists play exclusively with 3 fingers????

Playing with three fingers comes from a misunderstanding of the mechanics of the hand leading to a lack of hope for the fourth finger. The initial impression is that the fourth finger is weaker, less controllable, and will be generally less usable in the long run. All fingers are unusable in the beginning, and adopting a three fingered approach develops those three leaving the fourth behind - a self fulfilling decision.

The fourth finger is actually the strongest finger. This is easily demonstrated every time you grip a golf club, a baseball bat, a bar for doing chin-ups, grab the handle of a large pot of water on the stove, the handlebars of a bicycle, etc. You may be able to realize this without even doing the physical experiment, just imagining doing it.

The fourth finger has this strength despite being smaller and shorter; the smallness is not a reflection of strength because the muscles are up in the forearm (the bulgiest side at that), and the shorter length gives it mechanical advantage.

The three fingered approach sets the fingers at an angle whereby they point somewhat up the neck which extends their distance from the hand and put the string contact on their pads. That geometry is an additional loss of mechanical advantage, as opposed to placing the fingers parallel to the frets and curled (both less distance), and finger tip contact to the strings (mech. advantage).

The three finger approach is typically accompanied by placing the hand against the back of the neck. The thumb only contact with no hand contact, four fingers parallel and curled, tips contacting provides a freely variable position over the finger board like a rack (hand) and pinion (thumb) system, allowing local hand shifts without thumb shifts. The three fingered grip on the neck works against all this.

There is a stylistic continuum that ranges from sloppy to relaxed to focused to precise. Full control allows one to play anywhere within this continuum as desired (it even takes some skill to play "musically authentic" in the sloppy - relaxed range). Form that incurs losses in strength, reduction in mechanical advantage, and restricts spatial position flexibility and speed may not allow complete expression of some parts of that continuum.

Some may hold that the desired effect is the "tone" of three fingered execution (the sound of the articulation, feel, the balance of its musical possibilities vs its characteristic constraints). I think the method of the right hand sounding the strings (picking, fingers) is the primary source of that, not three or four fingers.

[Mick-7]

Thank you for all the examples, Christian.

At first look, all of those lines could be played by playing the notes on different strings rather than on the same one. At the moment I'm skeptical that they could not be fingered differently, but I'll have analyze them to see. Those wide interval leaps he plays would involve a lot of cross string picking.

[Christian Miller]

Thank you for all the examples, Christian.

At first look, all of those lines could be played by playing the notes on different strings rather than on the same one. At the moment I'm skeptical that they could not be fingered differently, but I'll have analyze them to see. Those wide interval leaps he plays would involve a lot of cross string picking.

Some of the examples - #2, the descending run at the end of #3 and #4 im as sure about as I am anything in this crazy world.

But I’ll be interested if you come up with an alternative.

Metronome mark is around 120

#1 is a little more questionable but it closely aligns with the way Allan phrases it so I’m confident it’s a good shout

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