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Whether it is cars/trucks, guitars or homes, the immutable rule is that you mostly buy in the same market in which you sell. Now if you can sell in a seller's market and wait for a buyers market to make that purchase, you will come out ahead (and there are always buyers markets in the future for everything). Some folks advertise their stuff for high dollar and wait for that high dollar purchaser and than are patient on the buy, waiting for a good deal from a more motivated seller.
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Good luck with your downsize!
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03-15-2022 06:45 PM
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I don't know about other countries, but here the government has often handed out bonuses for buying a new, cleaner car. With that, some dealer magic wand waving, and by having her "old" (2004 IIRC) Citroen C3 go to the scrapyard my partner got her new Skoda Fabia wagon for less than 13k€, back in 2018. That was in the almost entry-level trim, with a surprisingly nice little 3-cyl 1.0TSI engine. It's not that much smaller than my older Octy (which I could only afford because she had 100k on the odo) and lacks a few commodities I've come to appreciate, like heated rearview mirrors and motorised rear passenger windows but it's a lot of car for the money (OK for tall people as long they're not too broad or wide). Annoyingly we couldn't say no to the front-facing radar that's supposed to (help) stop the car if something steps in front of it (but that couldn't protect itself from a small pheasant, resulting in a costly repair). They also sell them with alloy wheels taking tyres in an uncommon, wide, low-profile format that's expensive, fragile and not a good choice for the road conditions we have a large part of the year; sadly I didn't think to see if we could have sold those wheels back. Took about 3 month to be delivered, actually a bit faster than first announced. Originally Posted by tbeltrans
I do remember calculating the price the car would cost by adding just the options we'd really want, and that would have come out a lot more expensive.
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Everybody go live in a city and do their travelling "some other way"? Oh wait, isn't this exactly what the IG influencers are trying to make us do....?
The interesting question is what will happen with road transport, both of merchandise and people. Would those resort to the solution used by (some?) diesel locs (and the original Chevvy Volt), where the ICE drives a generator that then drives the motor turning the wheels? Or would they go the fuel cell route?
(no idea what range a fuel-cell car could have, the few available or announced are accessible only to people who probably won't ever use them for long range driving...)
Can you imagine parking lots or even curb-side parking where every vehicle is connected to a charging point? :-/
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I see (perhaps wrongly) some issues with electric vehicles. First is the range. In the USA it seems that we run on the expectation of 300 - 400 mile range on a tank of gas, with plenty of gas stations so that a fill only takes a few minutes and we are off and running again. From what I read, electric cars do not yet have that range, charging takes quite some time, and there aren't nearly enough charging stations around yet to make normal usage viable. So if your spouse calls you at work and asks you to run some errands on the way home, that may not be possible if your car isn't charged up and/or the route is too long for the range of the vehicle, while for a gas car, such activities would be routine. Originally Posted by thelostboss
The second thing is what to do with spent batteries. As I understand it, these are large banks of lithium ion batteries, which are harmful to the environment both to manufacture and to discard at the end of their serviceable life. I don't find any discussion about this when electric cars are discussed. Of course, most of our goodies run on such batteries these days - tablets, smart phones, laptops, etc.
As I said, I could be completely wrong on both counts and am certainly open to being corrected that these things are not problems at all anymore. Being dogmatic on such issues only lends to arguments and defensiveness in which nobody learns anything. To me that is a waste of time, so admitting I don't know it all and could stand to learn a thing or two seems a much healthier way to approach such a discussion.
Tony
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The quoted range of an electric car is amusingly unrealistic to me. Most of us won’t let the gas gauge fall much below 1/4 tank before filling up. Why would we run an electric car anywhere close to its full rated range before recharging? And if we run out of gas, we can carry a jug back to the car and be mobile again. Do we carry a mile long extension cord in the trunk?
I’m definitely in favor of electric cars and would buy one without hesitation…….if I had a charging station in my condo parking space, if I had a second car powered by more readily available fuel, and if there were a sporty, fun to drive model at reasonable cost (eg Miata, FT86, etc). At my age, I’m not about to take out a 10 year car loan so I can leave my son an 8 year old Tesla about to need a $10k battery and with only 2 years of payments to go.
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Is the statement in bold really true? Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Tony
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Presumably, for the "most" Never had in mind... Originally Posted by tbeltrans
I fill up as a function of the range I'm expecting to need and the fuel prices I expect to encounter ahead, and I suppose lots of other people do too. That means I'll get (close to) the reserve light getting on if I'm doing lots of small trips around my home (which are less economic so I do as little of them as possible).
Both of you cite the exact same issues I see with electric cars, except that here in Europe many people are used to getting close to 1000km on a single tank of diesel. Try to beat that except with a very efficient, light, solar-powered vehicle...
And I definitely use and appreciate that range, esp. since with my driving style I get the best mileage on long (highway) trips - in summer it's not rare that I get between 4.5 and 5l per 100km (real usage, almost always lower than what the car claims).
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Well, the reason I asked is simply because I don't do that and neither do most people I know personally. However, again, what I am referring to are a relatively small number of people in the grand scheme of things. I often see statements made in various forums that indicate at least some folks have a far broader scope of knowledge and reference than I ever possibly could. That is why I try to be careful to qualify what I claim since I understand that I simply can't know what I don't know.
Here in Minnesota, when I moved here, I was advised to not let my tank get below half in the winter. That is for a couple of practical reasons, one being that I wouldn't want to risk running out of gas in the country in a snow storm. However, I have observed among those I personally know (which is as far as I can lay claim to know), that few of them actually practice this. I do, but many will wait to fill up until they are down below 1/4 tank.
Of course, the other advice given was to not eat yellow snow. I know of nobody who does eat yellow snow.
Tony
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I drive a RAV4 hybrid (~5l/100km) but my wife bought an EV last year, a Hyundai Kona EV. She had been driving a 15-year-old Honda Fit that was on its last legs (the locks hadn't worked in two years!). We got $CAN 6000 for driving it to the scrap yard (it was worth less than $1000) plus an $8000 gov't rebate for buying an EV. We use the Rav4 for longer trips, but we try to use the EV as much as possible around town. We charge it up overnight at home. It takes less than a minute to plug in. We've never been in a situation where we ran out of power. Servicing is once a year; the last one's cost came to $CAN 80 = $US 65.
Before you claim that this EV is running on coal-generated electricity... that may be true somewhere, but BC's electricity is almost entirely generated by hydroelectric dams. (BC is pretty much one mountain range after another.) Out electric bill is even colloquially called the "hydro" bill.
I'm not in Vancouver, but the coast mountains are just north of the city...
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Indeed they do - and they’re the ones who run out of gas from time to time. Even more know the panic that accompanies prayerful drives to the gas station while watching the needle sit below E. AAA polls show that 74% of drivers polled use the “miles to empty” indicator as a guide to filling up, but I can’t find a breakdown of the number at which most will refuel. Originally Posted by tbeltrans
[EDIT] From AAA, 24 million Americans regularly continue to drive after the low fuel light comes on. From the Daily Mail, about a million Brits run out of fuel every year because they drove despite knowing they had little or no fuel in the tank. What I find amusing is that even people whose risk tolerance is generally lower than drop D tuning are oblivious to this specific risk.[/EDIT]
My point was simply that a “350 mile range” is not a usable number for most drivers. Habitually waiting for the fuel warning light to come on is risky business with an ICE. In an electric car, it’s far more than that because you’re truly stuck without battery power and road service cannot help. If your driving is limited to local trips and you have ready access to public transportation if the electrons run out, it’d be livable for many (including me). But all the stuff that makes traffic driving tolerable sucks battery power - air conditioning, heating, sound system, lighting etc. if you get stuck in a 4 hour jam (on the road, not the stage), you could be really uncomfortable, really late, or both.
I’m still ambivalent about driving an electric car from Philly to Boston, DC, or Chicago. I’d be fine with a hybrid, but until my iPhone battery will get my car to the nearest charging station, I’m sticking with my ICE. I’m sure technology will improve the situation, and I hope my current car will be fine until it does.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 03-16-2022 at 10:36 AM.
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Can't argue with any of your points here. As for me, I formed the habit of filling up when my tank gets to, or slightly below, 1/2 tank. I don't recall ever having run out of gas as a result. The problem is that unforeseen things can happen such as suddenly being stuck on the freeway due to an accident or backups due to construction (in such a case, having to drive much extra distance for detours), etc. These things would also be a concern, as you point out, for an electric car. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
My car is a 2000 Toyota Echo that I bought used in 2004 for about $5k. It gets typically mid-30s around town and mid+ 40s on the freeway. I joke that its value is inversely proportional to the cost of a gallon of gas. It was a cheap to begin with, and that was the market it sold to when new. I have NEVER had a problem with it because there is nothing on it to go wrong. I did get a brake job at 160k miles and periodically (every 5 years or so) replace the battery and take it in for scheduled maintenance. All I need is a dependable car that gets me from point A to point B and back inexpensively, and the Echo is exactly that.
Tony
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They CAN help. The service trucks now carry chargers. Maybe not everywhere, but it's becoming commonplace. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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I do a lot of 100+ mile driving. I will not leave town with anything but a full tank, especially in winter, when condensation in the fuel system can be a serious problem. An ounce of prevention....
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WOW! Just WOW! Talk about a brush with greatness! My profoundest salutations, Sir! Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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I know most people here, myself included, are quite old and assume our way is the only way. I don’t own an electric car (wish I did) but I have plenty of neighbors and friends who do. None regret it.
As far as “range anxiety”, here’s what I’ve been told:
Would you worry about “filling up” if you had a gas station at home? Every morning you leave on your 20 mile commute you have a full tank of gas? What if there was a gas station at the parking lot of your work? What difference would it make if your car had 150 miles or 300 miles? Who cares about gas stations every half miles?
300 mile range is “old thinking” (I have been reliably informed by my twenty something nephews). It’s like worrying that you have enough phone jacks in your home.
Oh, and for those of you saying, “what about cross country trips?” I’m told that’s “old” too. Quote my nephew, “I spend ten hours a week stuck in my stupid car commuting for work. Why on Earth would I voluntarily choose to sit in a car for ten hours going somewhere I could fly in an hour and a half?” (For our European friends, multi-day driving is what people did for vacations in the US when I was a kid. Presumably because we didn’t have trains.) He also points out that you can recharge about 100miles of range in the first 15min. It takes hours to top up the last third of the batteries capacity, but the first two thirds is very quick. Apparently he can go from Santa Monica to Mammoth Lakes no problem with a single stop at a Tesla Charging station while he eats a burger, and that is as far as he is willing to drive.
Now, disposal of old batteries…
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I've been privileged to meet and hang with some top international drivers including a few world champions, and to a man (and woman, in the case of Denise McCluggage whom I only got to meet once) they've been humble and gracious to us ordinary people. There's a remarkable thread among world class people - most of those I've met have been humble, generous, friendly, and interested in the world around them. For my 21st birthday, my girlfriend took me to Paul's Mall & Jazz Workshop in Boston to see Wes. Needless to say, I dragged us there a few hours early - and a few $2 tips later, we were at a stageside table directly in front of him for the entire night. He talked to us on breaks and even during his sets. When he heard that I saved for and bought a 175 in high school because of him, he was amazingly free with tips and suggestions to a budding young guitarist. It was one of the highlights of my life. Originally Posted by citizenk74
WOW! Just WOW! Talk about a brush with greatness! My profoundest salutations, Sir!
(web pic - I never took a picture of places like these because we never dreamed they'd be gone someday)
This has been typical. Brian Redman was one of the race champions who spent a lot of his leisure time with us amateurs. He was always happy to offer hints for better performance, and he was one of the funniest people I ever met. He actually did a video interview with our younger son for a 3rd or 4th grade school project. And he was always giving hints to us on going faster. One of my friends raced a decent 1275 Mini Cooper S, and he was consistently last in the pack over all the years I knew him. We were at an SVRA meet at Road Atlanta, and he finally asked Brian sheepishly for a few hints on going faster during a practice session. Brian jumped into the passenger seat with a hearty "Let's get out there and see what we can do!"
The first lap went by at the usual snail's pace. But the second lap was 5 seconds faster and the third was 10 seconds faster. By the time they came in after about a dozen laps, times were competitive with his group. The car rolled to a stop and the owner staggered out with a dazed look on his white-as-a-sheet face. So I asked Brian what he did to get such an improvement. He replied, "Every time he lifted his right foot, I put my hand on his knee and pushed it back down."
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This is urban, progressive thinking. Some of us (myself included) like to backpack in some pretty remote places. We need an all wheel drive vehicle that does not depend on a nearby charging station to get to those trailheads (and back!). Originally Posted by rlrhett
If your whole driving experience is in LA with the occasion trip to the ski lifts of Mammoth, get the Tesla. If you work, live or play somewhere off the Interstate grid, gasoline is still a better choice.
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Sure, but you’re making it sound like I was talking about a small niche. Over 80% of the US population lives in urban areas, more if you include outer suburbs. For most people automobiles are an appliance for getting them to and from work, school, and essential shopping. There are some communities where having a skiff with an outboard motor or a bush plane is essential. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
If you have a niche need for regular long trips I have no doubt there will be an auto maker to meet your need. But retired gents who regularly drive hundreds of miles to go bass fishing is probably not the future of the automobile.
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...and neither is the internal combustion engine. But current EV and energy storage technology is not up to replacement of the noisy, smelly, maintenance-intense polluters I love so much. My wife and I drove diesel cars from 1982 until 1993, and we never lost that nagging fear of being unable to find fuel despite having zero problems doing so in 11 years. We get the same feeling about the current range of EVs. But we'll gladly leap in when the next Bill Gates emerges from his parents' basement with the solution to energy storage and transport in a personal vehicle. Originally Posted by rlrhett
It does appear that interest in the automobile as personal transportation is on the wane anyway. There's been a steady decline in the % of US teenagers who apply for a license on reaching the legal age. From the data banks at Statistica, we learn that "...61 percent of 18-year-olds in the U.S. had a driver's license in 2018, compared to 80.4 percent in 1983". My wife and I love good public transportation and take it wherever we go if it's clean, safe, and accessible. Until Covid hit, we took the bus downtown whenever we went into Philly and used Uber if returning home late. So we'd love nothing more than to see this service expanded throughout the country.
And furthermore, you young whippersnapper, we old gents who drive hundreds of miles to go fishing or otherwise enjoy our chosen pursuits of pleasure may soon be the only people left who will buy cars at all.
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My point exactly. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
And furthermore, you young whippersnapper, we old gents who drive hundreds of miles to go fishing or otherwise enjoy our chosen pursuits of pleasure may soon be the only people left who will buy cars at all.
Ps, my avatar is a drawing of me done by my daughter several years ago, are you sure I’m a “young” whipper-snapper? I play jazz guitar. That alone should give you an idea of how old I must be. ;-)
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If you're ever in Vancouver, find a reason to take the False Creek aquabuses!
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Ummmm - that was a joke. As for BDLH's observation, been there, loved it!! Originally Posted by rlrhett
However.......for this lifetime hot dog lover, the true highlight of our visits to Vancouver is the ready availability of a fix at every corner. I was unable to pass one of these carts without having at least one salmon, halibut, or bison dog!
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You're forcing me to make another recommendation: Japadog Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
However.......for this lifetime hot dog lover, the true highlight of our visits to Vancouver is the ready availability of a fix at every corner. I was unable to pass one of these carts without having at least one salmon, halibut, or bison dog!
The story behind Japadog is that the founder wanted to open a stand that sold Japanese food, but the restaurant owners had cart licenses restricted to hot dog carts. The rest is Vancouver history! Best eaten when drunk.
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Hey ol' buddy how are ya! Originally Posted by rlrhett
I have to jump in here with a few more observations...just my observations...you can correct me of course.
Average price tag $40-60k. ( That ain't middle class transportation. )
Average home electrical system will not handle auto charge...average upgrade $4k.
Average insurance due to expensive repairs $3k a year.
Everybody plugin...brown out.
Resale zip without new bat pack.
Just say'n...hope you're practising!
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Yes, that is the other problem that I alluded to, but didn't state, in my post on the matter. Thanks for filling that in. Originally Posted by citizenk74
I do a lot of 100+ mile driving. I will not leave town with anything but a full tank, especially in winter, when condensation in the fuel system can be a serious problem. An ounce of prevention....
A general comment to the thread but not related to the quoted post, I simply don't see charging stations around my area, but do see a lot of gas stations. That has nothing to do with how old I am, it just is the way it is right now. Maybe someday that will change.
Tony
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