Talent or lack thereof

[Marinero]

" The pressure from getting out there and playing is the best method for honing skills."
Victor Samurez

"It is often the case that a talented person has more time, because everything is easy for him.... . . . A talented person achieves what they want to achieve in a shorter time." Kris

"And some people cannot develop their ears no matter how hard they try......" Stringswinger

Five Star quotes!
Marinero

[citizenk74]

I remember her!

Attachment 88812

One of the most talented and hard-working innovators in the history of television. A visionary who made things happen, and is rightfully remembered with fondness and respect. Note: Jamestown, New York is the home of the Lucille Ball Desi Arnaz Museum, which is well worth the trip and the time.

[ragman1]

Talent is natural ability. Because it comes naturally those who have it tend to do more of it. Thus they advance.

If those who don't have it force themselves they might get somewhere. Usually they never get anywhere more than mediocre. Personally I wouldn't make myself do something that was unnatural to me. I'd find something I could do and be happy.

[kris]

Jazz talent - improvisational and compositional talent?
What is talent in classical music?

[Litterick]

Interpretation.

[Marinero]

Jazz talent - improvisational and compositional talent?
What is talent in classical music?

Hi, K,
This video should be required viewing for all serious Classical or Jazz students. Rubenstein was a poet of the piano and his voice was personal and profound. He understood talent intuitively and intellectually and its profound connection to music. He is absolutely correct when he says "you must be born with talent . . . and . . . "you can't learn talent." His advice to "play what one feels" is critical to achieving personal artistry since there is an emotional, spiritual, and intellectual connection to the music. Even his personal epiphany about "soul" speaks to a deep, innate, primordial connection to personal human communication through the Arts. These topics, today, seem to be missing among musicians and music programs where the focus is on pedagogy that might produce a mechanic but . . . never an artist. And, there are some prospective musicians that will never understand these critical elements much as teaching a Bedouin the love of the sea after a life spent in the desert. These discussions should be foremost in every serious musician's life. Thanks for the excellent video, Kris!
Marinero

[Stringswinger]

Hi, K,
This video should be required viewing for all serious Classical or Jazz students. Rubenstein was a poet of the piano and his voice was personal and profound. He understood talent intuitively and intellectually and its profound connection to music. He is absolutely correct when he says "you must be born with talent . . . and . . . "you can't learn talent." His advice to "play what one feels" is critical to achieving personal artistry since there is an emotional, spiritual, and intellectual connection to the music. Even his personal epiphany about "soul" speaks to a deep, innate, primordial connection to personal human communication through the Arts. These topics, today, seem to be missing among musicians and music programs where the focus is on pedagogy that might produce a mechanic but . . . never an artist. And, there are some prospective musicians that will never understand these critical elements much as teaching a Bedouin the love of the sea after a life spent in the desert. These discussions should be foremost in every serious musician's life. Thanks for the excellent video, Kris!
Marinero

Yep, you must be born with talent. I am pretty certain that anyone who disagrees wasn't.

[ccroft]

Interpretation.

To put a little finer point on that, I think it's the ability to make real in the moment something that was written by someone else, and sometimes many hundreds of years ago. Not unlike a good Shakespearean actor. Or perhaps a great bop player.

It requires everything that Mr Rubinstein talks about. But this is talk. It's a visceral thing that is felt by the performer and the listener, if he's open to it.

Conservatories have been turning out robotic players for centuries. It's only the ones who have the deeper connection that rise.
If anything, it's more apparent in the classical realm since there are so many thousands of grads every year who can all get through the repertoire just fine.

A few have it. Many do not. It is talent.

[Marinero]

To put a little finer point on that, I think it's the ability to make real at the moment something that was written by someone else, and sometimes many hundreds of years ago. Not unlike a good Shakespearean actor. Or perhaps a great bop player.

It requires everything that Mr. Rubinstein talks about. But this is talk. It's a visceral thing that is felt by the performer and the listener if he's open to it.

Conservatories have been turning out robotic players for centuries. It's only the ones who have the deeper connection that rises.
If anything, it's more apparent in the classical realm since there are so many thousands of grads every year who can all get through the repertoire just fine.

A few have it. Many do not. It is talent.

Hi, C,
Your first line: "I think it's the ability to make real at the moment something that was written by someone else," is the essence of Classical music where improvisation is not the soup du jour. A Classical composer has the very difficult task of writing beauty and emotion with little black dots and lines but the music can never come to life without a sensitive musician's talents that transform these hieroglyphics into human communication of the highest order. And, for me, few have done this better than Rubenstein and if you want to be serious about music . . . artists of this caliber are your best teachers.
Secondly, when you say "Conservatories have been turning out robotic players for centuries. . . ", this is not supported by historical evidence. What has happened post-WWII is that music programs moved, largely, out of the conservatories and into universities and colleges so they could reap the added profits to their bottom lines with the greatest college enrollment ever during the Baby Boomer generation where every fool with a loan or a checkbook went to college and helped create the conceptual modern universities we know today. So, music conservatories, in the past, were reserved for only the best students who could pass a written and juried formal audition before acceptance. This proved to create a small cadre of elite musicians that generally filled orchestras across the country and around the world. It was only during the Boomer generation that some relaxed their acceptance standards to "stay in the game." However, the European conservatories, in my opinion, have held steadfast to their standards and are still producing great musicians. Further, before the late 19th /20th Century, musicians studied privately with other musicians as was the case with most famous Classical composers.
Finally, Jazzers' also play music "written by someone else" so that analogy to Classical music performance is a red herring and the only difference between a great Jazzer or Classical musician is speaking the language of the genre. All great musicians have one thing in common: talent. Some have it . . . some don't."
Marinero
.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Conservatories have been turning out robotic players for centuries.

So have the jazz mills (although not for quite as many years yet). One of the guys who preceded me in a wonderful commercial band with whom I played for about 5 years was (and still is) a well educated, fantastic guitarist and musician with an encyclopedic knowledge of theory. He had great ears. The reason I was hired to take his place was that I played the line on Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head so that guests at the parties we played recognized it, and my solos (like those of the rest of the band) were within that envelope. My predecessor laid down a 12 tone version that had all but the Schoenberg lovers on the dance floor squirming in anguish.

Everything he played was well thought out, strictly within his chosen framework, and perfectly executed. All it lacked was soul, relevance, and personality. He had bags of talent - he just lacked the taste and judgment to do the job for which he was hired.

[Stringswinger]

All it lacked was soul, relevance, and personality. He had bags of talent - he just lacked the taste and judgment to do the job for which he was hired.

This describes the playing of so many talented guitarists who IMO, suffer from too much "jazz education".

I feel blessed to have been born with some innate musical talent, but alas, that talent is somewhat limited, so I have to compensate for my chops shortcomings by playing tastefully. So far, so good. I still get paid to play my guitar on a regular basis. The music is free. The money is for the driving.

[ronjazz]

This describes the playing of so many talented guitarists who IMO, suffer from too much "jazz education".

The music is free. The money is for the driving.

I've maintained for years that we belong in the Teamster's union, not the toothless wreck of the AFM.

[Stringswinger]

I've maintained for years that we belong in the Teamster's union, not the toothless wreck of the AFM.

No doubt. And considering that some of us drive as much as a long haul trucker does, the Teamsters would be appropriate.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I've maintained for years that we belong in the Teamster's union, not the toothless wreck of the AFM.

Don’t get me started on the union! Our local was a freak show from the day I “auditioned” for membership in 1969 until the day I quit in frustration 30 years later. The leadership was less than focused on our wellbeing and arbitrary in applying the contents of the manual. A few examples:

Union officials showed up at gigs dressed like Al Capone a week or two before elections, to count the number of us on the stand. It was apparently common for leaders to underreport band size to reduce work dues, which obviously also cut one or more of us out of the loop as far as the union was concerned. The office “withheld” our work dues and pension contributions but apparently never paid them into the AFM funds. So the elected leaders of the local would “catch” everybody but let the leaders off with a “warning” and a reminder that elections were coming up. I learned years later that most of my pension contributions were AWOL, leading me to believe that the leaders for whom I worked (all of whom are now dead) split that money with the union guys (also all now dead).

When I once complained that the piano in the main ballroom of the center city Philly Holiday Inn was horribly out of tune and made my gig there an embarrassment, I was told that they were too busy to check every piano in Philadelphia. I pointed out that it was a top rated room in the union book, which meant that they claimed to check it regularly. So I asked the president-for-life (who actually answered the phone) what they did for my work dues. Here’s what followed:

“We protect you.”
”From what?”
”Unscrupulous employers.”
[Insert sound of phone being slammed onto receiver here]

[Marinero]

" Our local(union) was a freak show from the day I “auditioned” for membership in 1969 until the day I quit in frustration 30 years later. " Nevershouldhavesoldit

Hi, N,
I joined Chicago 10-208 in '72. The audition was a complete joke: they asked me to read a few simple lines and then said, "Play something." Afterward, I paid my dues. However, they had the best venues in the city and suburbs and if you wanted to play those gigs you had to be union. They also had a "blacklist" for clubs that "stiffed" musicians but that was also a joke since nothing was ever done to rectify the problem. I don't know if things have changed but those gigs are few and far between today.
Marinero

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

they had the best venues in the city and suburbs and if you wanted to play those gigs you had to be union.

Yeah - that was why I joined. I was offered the guitar chair in one of the featured and highest paying bands in the office. But they wouldn’t take me until I had a union card. I got the job on Tuesday, auditioned at the union offices Wednesday, got my card and bought a tux on Thursday, picked the tux up Saturday, and played my first gig with them Saturday night. I played at least 3 great gigs a week with them for several years from that day.

Our local’s been taken over by some serious and apparently honest people who are players and take care of the members. Sadly, the only gigs that take union membership seriously now are at the level of the Philadelphia Orchestra. A good, solid, creative union could be a big help to young musicians starting out and to middle aged players trying to compete against disc jockeys and prevail over difficult club owners. It’s a real shame that the union drove so many of us away by wasting our dues and treating us like trash.

[jameslovestal]

Yeah - that was why I joined. I was offered the guitar chair in one of the featured and highest paying bands in the office. But they wouldn’t take me until I had a union card. I got the job on Tuesday, auditioned at the union offices Wednesday, got my card and bought a tux on Thursday, picked the tux up Saturday, and played my first gig with them Saturday night. I played at least 3 great gigs a week with them for several years from that day.

Our local’s been taken over by some serious and apparently honest people who are players and take care of the members. Sadly, the only gigs that take union membership seriously now are at the level of the Philadelphia Orchestra. A good, solid, creative union could be a big help to young musicians starting out and to middle aged players trying to compete against disc jockeys and prevail over difficult club owners. It’s a real shame that the union drove so many of us away by wasting our dues and treating us like trash.

What does "in the office" represent? I don't understand "highest paying bands in the office".

Thanks

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

What does "in the office" represent? I don't understand "highest paying bands in the office".

Thanks

There are many organizations of bandleaders and bands out there, and I worked for two of the best in our region. Music Associates was an aggregate of about 15 leaders and over 200 sidemen and women in Philadelphia, and they played 95% of the high end non-socialite weddings, bar mitzvahs, etc in the region for many years. There were 5 owners, each of whom had a great band - they came together to form the organization, and they grew it just as a group medical practice brings in additional doctors, nurses, etc.

MA (like most such groups) was run from a central office with a few employees who managed the business end - payroll, taxes, logistics, coordination etc. We could be called by the office to play for any of the leaders, but the “big 5” rarely rotated players. I worked for a great guy named Lou King, and the core band was me, bass, drums, trumpet, tenor / clarinet, and Lou on accordion. He was a wonderful musician and a great leader who respected us all and treated us like friends and equals. I truly miss him and the rest of the guys a lot! Sadly, I think that only the bass player and I are still alive, and he retired to Florida years ago.

After MA, I played for the Harriet Fay organization. She was a great keyboard player and leader who also treated us all well. I think she had 5 or 6 other leaders in her office. Remember that the live music business was already drying up, and the days of 3 or 4 dates a week for a dozen bands in each of many offices were gone (at least here) 30+ years ago. Like MA, she had a “stable” of the top players in our region and every gig was an adventure. Sadly, she also passed away.

Pay scale was determined by the owner(s) of the offices and we were all employees of the offices for which we played. MA generally paid scale plus travel and cartage, but they also honored doubling and other add-ons in accord with union rules. Thanks to Lou, I doubled on keys and got paid for it even if it was only a tune or two - if the bride wanted it, I did it. Remember when the themes from Exodus and from Love Story were popular? I played one or both on piano at every gig for years and got paid as a double. Lou always made sure his band did as well as we legitimately could - most leaders were not so good about that. And Harriet routinely paid me double scale plus add-ons.

Those were great times and I loved almost every minute of every day. The office booked duos and trios to play background jazz for fashion shows at fancy shops - I had many 4 to 8 (!) hour dates like that. On my own, I played jazz at least a few nights a week at restaurants and clubs. And I did everything from blues to country when called. It’s a miracle that I got through graduate school and then held a steady day gig too!

[Dbl]

O.K. for the record . . . not everyone can play Jazz, Classical, Funk, Country, etc. There is a feel for the music that I believe is both innate and environmental in re: lifetime exposure(omnipresent/subliminal) to a genre. But, everyone can play all music to some degree. The frustration comes when you love something but can't possess it . . . much like the cute blonde next door that never looked in your direction when you left the house. So, when I was leading horn bands in the past, at times, I frequently used Classical guys in the horn section who could read very well since all our shows were charted and we had some tight, heavily syncopated horn parts. And, since my first trumpet and sax(me) did all the improvisations, it really didn't matter. But, when I expanded our horn section, I hired a bone player who was enrolled at a local conservatory who was a farm boy from Iowa who had great chops, great reading skills, and loved the music. However, it was impossible for him to improvise. I used to write simple Funk licks for him to practice/play but they always sounded stiff-- however well-played but he just didn't have the feel. However, he was a positive force in the horn section and never was late for a practice or gig and stayed until the end when gigs disappeared for 8-10 piece bands. So, I hate to be a messenger of fate but playing Jazz is no different than the ability to hit a 90 plus mile an hour fastball--some can do it, most can't.
Marinero

I’d put it slightly differently. If you’re naturally really good at something, then the chances are you are going to really enjoy doing it. And if you really enjoy doing it, then you’re going to do a lot of it. And if you do a lot of it, then you’re gonna get really good at it. So I would say that those who have a natural talent at improvisation are going to get good because they’re going to love doing it and so they’re going to do a lot of it. So it’s the talent that leads to the practice!

[AllanAllen]

I’m starting to think it’s how you were raised. I learned a lot when my kids were in baseball this year.

Did your parents teach you that with effort anything can be learned and play fetch for a year while you learned to throw, or did they try once then say I’m not playing catch with you because you have no talent.

Seems like a lot of people were raised the second way. Which is lost potential.

[pamosmusic]

I’d put it slightly differently. If you’re naturally really good at something, then the chances are you are going to really enjoy doing it. And if you really enjoy doing it, then you’re going to do a lot of it. And if you do a lot of it, then you’re gonna get really good at it. So I would say that those who have a natural talent at improvisation are going to get good because they’re going to love doing it and so they’re going to do a lot of it. So it’s the talent that leads to the practice!

My experience of this with students has been pretty darned close to the opposite.

Not across the board. But with a lot of students it works the other way.

[James W]

This Stephen Jay Gould quote sums up my thoughts on the matter.

[Gsjazz]

You're not alone, many dedicated players hit this wall, even after years of effort. Hearing melodies can be trained; it’s not just an innate gift, and slow, deliberate practice helps. You've built a solid foundation, keep going, and focus on connecting your ear to your instrument.

[JazzPadd]

This is an interesting conversation, and glad to see it revived again! I read through all the previous posts and have a few thoughts that still need a little cooking. But the first thing that came to mind was when I was an undergraduate in college in the early 1980s, in a joint program with a liberal arts community college and a regional music conservatory.

My working class parents, may they rest in peace, (and grandparents; Dad was a NYC firefighter, Grandad was a NYC sanitation worker) were cautious toward the arts as a vocation, no one in the family or who they knew had done that and they generally saw music as a pastime. Eventually, my parents naturally asked one of the veteran faculty members at the music conservatory how I was doing. He strategically answered, "Your son is predisposed toward music," which was enough for them to support me a bit longer.

I suppose having a predisposition is perhaps a part of the talent spectrum, but I was also practicing all the time, for many many hours. It wasn't work; music was a joy, almost an obsession. Within a year or two, I was playing in a wedding band and other bands, as well as teaching guitar, enough to support myself. I also landed a three year jazz guitar scholarship at another regional college to play in their big band, while studying with a well-known guitarist. I got a BA in Music Education with a HS music teacher's license.

But at the same time, I found that I seemed predisposed toward other arts endeavors, such as filmmaking, sculpture, writing, etc. After graduation, and further realizing that I had a knack for teaching, I got a day job teaching music in a couple of high schools for a few years, still working in the wedding band and teaching guitar students, while also pursuing those other arts interests. However, by age 30 I had become disillusioned with the hustling life of an entertainer and also fed up working as a HS teacher. So I quit both and sold all my music gear to study and travel and see what the world might bring to me.

Decades later, living abroad and nearing retirement as a teacher in a non-music field, the guitar called me back. I gradually began playing at local jazz jam sessions, but just as a hobby. I'm finding, in many ways, I enjoy playing guitar more now than I did back in the day. I still don't know if I have any talent, but at this point it doesn't seem to matter much.