Talent or lack thereof

[rpjazzguitar]

My experience and observation is that you can't learn to play jazz without actually playing jazz with other live human beings to at least some extent. It's an inherently ensemble-based and social art form. So if all you're doing is sitting by yourself with books and other forms of canned instruction, you're going to get stuck. However, if you put yourself in a room with other people (a teacher, a friend or two also trying to learn, a band (if you can find one), a jam session, etc.), the activity forces you to get out of your own head, put whatever skills you have to use, and gives you the kind of feedback you need in order to grow. That includes the extent to which you are "pre-hearing"/audiating what you play. Playing with others is a fundamentally different experience from playing by yourself, and it brings this facet of playing out (at least in my experience) much more than solitary playing does. Forget the question of "talent," and forget about whether you're good enough yet to play. Just play with other people and use that experience to grow.

I think this is exactly right.

It's been said many times. The preferred position, for growth, is to be the worst player in the band. If you can handle the blows to self esteem, you'll find a way to get better.

You don't give up practicing. In fact, you'll probably end up practicing more. You record the group and critique the recordings. You hear all kinds of things about your playing you don't like - and then you work on them one at a time.

I'll just focus on one small aspect that I was thinking about yesterday. How much do you need to know? Is the solution to one of your identified problems likely to be learning more theory or technique? Well, possibly. But, a lot of the time, it will be a matter of applying what you already know. Better time, more ways to use a familiar chord grip, better melody with the scales you already know, etc etc.

[VanEpsInDeChirico]

when I have to improvise on the fly it never quite comes together the way I'd like with timing issues and phrase lengths not fitting nicely into the form.

Have you ever tried to “dumb down” your improvising? If you’re timing and phrase lengths are a problem, maybe make your rhythms and phrases simpler. Improvising has become much easier for me since I began playing simpler solos. Sometimes I play the same note over and over and over with different syncopation. With a different pick attack on each note. I slide into the note. I don’t slide into it. I play it long & drawn out. I play it short, staccato and rigid. I add an element of surprise by adding a 2nd note sometimes. If I get into the groove and lose self-awareness, even a single note becomes kinda fun to play and even pleasant to listen to. When the simple things I do become 2nd nature, I start branching out into slightly wilder territory. Once I’m in the groove, I start to hear in my head (or maybe not “hear” so much as intuit, or feel) different possibilities and then I try to execute those. But only if I really feel it. I try not to move my fingers “just because.”

[JSanta]

My teacher tells me something almost every week: you cannot build a tree. He means that it takes thoughtful effort over many years. This person is regarded as one of the finest players in the world, and he has to work everyday at his craft. So while I do think talent is a thing, I think that hard, thoughtful work can make up for a lack of talent. I have delved into playing the Gypsy style over the past two years and I am just now starting to feel like I am making progress. And I dedicate practice to it for at least an hour a two a day to see any kind of progress.

I am a firm believer that with some dedicated work, even a monkey like myself can be a decent player over the course of several years. Some players get there easier than others. I started with a '98 Honda Civic, some people start with a Ferrari. With patience and upgrades, I can get my Civic to at least perform darn well.

[kris]

Attachment 88809
Miles and his Ferrari.

[whiskey02]

I know for myself and have posted it here before; if I have a good run of spending 4 to 6 hours or more a day with my guitar, I effortlessly play sh#t that was not happening the week before. Hipper sounding, faster, subconsciously derived, better music and guitar playing. When in such a groove it is not uncommon to play something that sounds so good that it causes you to pause for a moment because it doesn't make sense to you that you just played it! If you usually practice 2 hours a day, spend 2 weeks doing 5 hours a day and you'll be pleasantly surprised.
You can't be rigid in practicing, you have to adapt to what life puts on your plate. Sometimes when you'd like to be playing you're taking your dog to the vet or sitting on the dentist's waiting room. But you have a chunk of time Saturday that you, well, you....you know.... you usually waste it. Don't do that.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I started with a '98 Honda Civic, some people start with a Ferrari. With patience and upgrades, I can get my Civic to at least perform darn well.

That's a metaphor for both player and instrument! I've known many wonderful players who had to struggle hard for years to achieve that level. I've known players who were clearly born with a gift but who took it for granted, fell back on it, practiced little, and never came close to their true potential. And I've heard many greats make wonderful music with crummy old guitars.

Likewise, as a life long SCCA racer, I can tell you that there's little in life more fun than building your own car for $10k and finishing ahead of many who have 10 times the money and potential in their cars. I did it regularly for 35 years. And I actually proved your premise on the infield road course at Pocono Raceway in the '93 Civic base coupe in which my sons learned to drive. I didn't beat a Ferrari, though - it was just a loudmouth boor driving a Bertil Roos racing school Formula Ford with a mild engine.

So it ain't what you play - it's how you play it. And it ain't the cards you're dealt - it's how you play the game.

[grahambop]

Miles and his Ferrari.

Me and mine.

[citizenk74]

I always say this - being a jazz musician is hard work.
It is not only playing but also the ability to organize concerts, jams, recordings etc.
Often times, organizational talent is really very important.

True words. In my experience, arranging to have jams and practices and gigs and other places and opportunities to play is 95% of the job. You want to play with other people (safety in numbers) you don't sit around waiting for the phone to ring. You make something happen.

[citizenk74]

Attachment 88809
Miles and his Ferrari.

In which he was frequently arrested for driving it while Black.

[citizenk74]

There's a Toyota in my driveway. There's a Testarosa in my mind.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

There's a Testarosa in my mind.

I remember her!

[AllanAllen]

You can't be rigid in practicing, you have to adapt to what life puts on your plate. Sometimes when you'd like to be playing you're taking your dog to the vet or sitting on the dentist's waiting room. But you have a chunk of time Saturday that you, well, you....you know.... you usually waste it. Don't do that.

This is the key to the whole thing if you ask me. You have the time somewhere.

[rpjazzguitar]

Suppose the phone rang and you were offered a gig with Herbie Hancock.

What would you worry about?

I'd worry about the ability to hear and understand, instantly, what the other musicians are playing, both harmonically and rhythmically.

[Litterick]

I would worry that Herbie Hancock had gone out of his mind. I would ask him if owns the Testarossa in my driveway.

[Stringswinger]

I would worry that Herbie Hancock had gone out of his mind. I would ask him if owns the Testarossa in my driveway.

I would take the gig and hope that Herbie would not have regained lucidity by the date of the show.

While I am certain that I would not embarrass myself on the bandstand, I am quite cognizant of the fact that I do not belong there.

[AllanAllen]

Relevant words of encouragement at 53 minutes. It comes when it’s ready, not when you’re ready, and you have to practice.



https://youtu.be/4d6WiDe5ieI

[DBLR]

I saw Miles play when he was in a walking cast after crashing his Lamborghini. 1972 i think.

[kris]

Suppose the phone rang and you were offered a gig with Herbie Hancock.

What would you worry about?

I'd worry about the ability to hear and understand, instantly, what the other musicians are playing, both harmonically and rhythmically.

It would be very nice, but it's just a dream.
Herbie knows exactly who to invite to cooperate.
But if it did, I'd start practicing 48 hours a day.

[kris]

There's a Toyota in my driveway. There's a Testarosa in my mind.

My Honda Jazz is quite nice.

[rpjazzguitar]

What I was thinking about is that I wouldn't be worried about not playing fast enough or fancy enough harmony.

I'd be concerned that the band would go into outer space, rhythmically and/or harmonically, and that it would be difficult to follow.

In other words, I'd be worried about my ear not being developed enough for the gig, and less about the guitar.

[grahambop]

Suppose the phone rang and you were offered a gig with Herbie Hancock?

I would assume it was a scam and end the call.

[kris]

I would assume it was a scam and end the call.

It could also be an excellent joke made by a friend.

[kris]

What I was thinking about is that I wouldn't be worried about not playing fast enough or fancy enough harmony.

I'd be concerned that the band would go into outer space, rhythmically and/or harmonically, and that it would be difficult to follow.

In other words, I'd be worried about my ear not being developed enough for the gig, and less about the guitar.

If it was Cantalope Island, I'd love to play with Herbie.
It would be a life concert for me.
I've been waiting for the phone since yesterday ... but silence.

[grahambop]

It could also be an excellent joke made by a friend.

That’s what the young Dexter Gordon assumed when Marshall Royal rang to offer him a job in Lionel Hampton’s band. Dexter told him to get lost and slammed the phone down!

[grahambop]

My Honda Jazz is quite nice.

I used to think the Hyundai Getz must have been named by some hip executive who was into cool jazz. I was disappointed to find out that it’s just one of those stupid product names they invent, i.e. getz = gets (as in ‘gets you places’).